question about down gear

Fallbrook Forge

Fallbrook Forge

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Jan 1, 2006
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I don't know much about down gear, I do know it's light and warm.
My question is can you keep it compressed or will this ruin it? I am asking because I'm putting together an extended survival pack for myself and my wife, I want to know if I can keep a down jacket or sleep bag in the pack or not.

thanks alot
Tyler
 
I wouldn't keep down compressed. Most manufacturers recommend against it and often supply a large storage bag so that you can store a down garment/bag without limiting its loft.

DancesWithKnives
 
so keeping it compressed ruins it? How so? Is there an insulation that can stay in a pack and still be effective?
 
It can eventually diminish the resilience of the down. A good friend of mine stored a very nice North Face bag in the stuff sack for more than ten years. It went from being a zero rated bag to about a 30-40 degree bag. The down just wouldn't bounce back to anywhere near its original loft, even though he had a down bag specialist (referred by Adventure 16) launder the thing and attempt to re-fluff it.

I have a Sierra Designs Cloud Series (700 cu in/oz) bag that I bought in 1977 and stored properly. It still lofts great. Unfortunately, my "figure" is no longer trim enough to use it comfortably....

I don't expect that weeks of storage would be a big problem but I really don't know.

I've read that some of the synthetics are less susceptible to loss of loft while compressed, but I have no facts to back that up. It would be a good idea to contact some manufacturers and see what they say.

DancesWithKnives
 
DWK2 said:
I wouldn't keep down compressed. Most manufacturers recommend against it and often supply a large storage bag so that you can store a down garment/bag without limiting its loft.

DancesWithKnives
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Definately - I keep my down coat in a large paper bag and only put it in the stuff sac when I need to carry it.

I would think that long term compression of most insulators would affect their insulating properties. Maybe something that doesn't compress too much like wool or fiber pile would fair better
 
You may be right about some of the denser fabrics being more resistant to loss of insulating value from compression. For example, I understand that Thinsulate is made thinner and denser than many other insulators. That makes it better for boots or stylish ski clothing where significant loft is not compatible with the design of the boot/garment. It's just speculation on my part but perhaps the manufacturers who use Thinsulate can recommend items that will withstand long-term compression.

DancesWithKnives
 
No. Polyester batting is even more prone to loss of loft from prolonged compression than down. Think of folding the blade on a nylon spatula. When you let go, it springs back. Now fold it and hold it in place with a stack of bricks. Come back in a month and remove the bricks. Not much springback. It will have "cold formed" into the shape while compressed. You can't blow it back up like a Thermorest to compensate for the cold-forming. Same for polyester batting. But store it uncompressed when you are not on a trip, and it will last for years (or yarns for Galactica fans).

Thinsulate is not compressed as used in the sides and top of boots. (The footbed is typically insulated with foam, cork, or felt.) When they tried to use Thinsulkate in sleeping bags years ago ("The Lastest and Greatest!!!"), body weight damaged it.
 
The problem with synthetic fibers is that they too should be stored loose. Everytime you compress them you are breaking up some of the fibers. I think if you want a bag to compress ONCE and leave it for a time and hope it would work when you broke it out (say when the SHTF) - Man made is the way to go.

TF
 
Any bag that i've had as soon as it starts loosing it's 'fluff' I wash it and put it in a tumble dryer with 2 or 3 tennis balls. I was told this by an old storeman friend of mine and I must say it does put the 'fluff' factor back in nicely.

Apart from that I have to echo what everyone else is saying that I don't store warm clothing or sleeping bags in compression sacks if I can at all help it.
 
Not really what your asking but its difficult to wash, it often bunches up, which leaves pockets where there is no insulation. I just tried washing mine because it had campfire smoke on it and had this problem. Even with the tennis ball things there are still a few clumps.

Like others have said, down is very warm, but would not do well being compressed as it can permanently loose loft. I would suggest some synthetic material instead.
 
andrew7978 said:
Not really what your asking but its difficult to wash, it often bunches up, which leaves pockets where there is no insulation. I just tried washing mine because it had campfire smoke on it and had this problem. Even with the tennis ball things there are still a few clumps.

Like others have said, down is very warm, but would not do well being compressed as it can permanently loose loft. I would suggest some synthetic material instead.
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There are special chemicals that you can buy to wash down that work much better than just using regular detergent. Regular detergent is not recommended for just about every piece of outdoor gear I have seen, especially down and technical outerwear.

Down is so nice because of its compressibility and weight. You can get a 0F rated down bag that weighs under two pounds and compresses down to the size of a football. There is no synthetic insulation that comes even close to that. You do have to take better care of down, but it is worth it to me to spend that extra bit of effort making sure my down bag or jacket is not wet/dirty/etc.

No insulation does well being permanently compressed, so I would not use that as a factor in your decisions. One of my jobs is in outdoor retail, and from what the vendor reps tell me, synthetic insulation will lose loft from being compressed before down will, but both will do it eventually.
 
Interesting info on the performance of synthetics. I have a North Face Polarguard 3D Bag (Snow Owl??) that was rated near zero (can't recall exactly) and lofted pretty well for 5-6 years of Alaska river trips and other use in moist environments or where weight was less significant. Now it is not doing as well, despite a wash in my frontloader. I had heard that even if stored properly (as I did with this bag), many synthetics can deteriorate more rapidly than down.

You might want to check the Wiggy's website to see whether they can show that their synthetic insulation will take sustained compression better than others.

DancesWithKnives
 
The highend polyester fibers have kinks set in the fibers by heat. This gives them more volume for a given weight of fill. The manufacturers warn against drying with high heat because high heat causes the "permaent wave" to straighten out, reducing loft. Cold forming also flattens out this crimp.

The wash/dry (on low) routine helps with another problem - matting down of the fibers. The highend fibers have silicon coating, which helps with fluffing up as well as moisture transport.

The problem with synthetic fibers is that they too should be stored loose. Everytime you compress them you are breaking up some of the fibers. I think if you want a bag to compress ONCE and leave it for a time and hope it would work when you broke it out (say when the SHTF) - Man made is the way to go.
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Polyester fibers do not break up. They have very high strength. Down, on the other paw, can suffer mechanical damage from compression. But compress any filler for years, and it will have MUCH less loft when you finally want to use it. Don't do it, Joe, don't!! :eek:
 
Thomas Linton said:
That would depend on how cold "the stumps" gets. Might need two -- or ten.
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Yeah-- I know, a wool blanket or two doesn't adequately address the possible needs, but I just don't think there's anything out there can can remain compressed for long periods without destroying it's effectiveness. MAYBE Thinsulate. I think if Thinsulate were any way comparable to down, or even Polarguard, we'd be seeing more of it in sleeping bags. I'm not sure a Thinsulate blanket/bag would be better than a wool blanket. I admit, I wouldn't want to have to rely on a wool blanket either. I'm just not sure there's something better.
 
wow, thanks for all the info.

how about not compressed but stored loosely inside a seperate pod attached to a pack?
 
gruntinhusaybah said:
so keeping it compressed ruins it? How so? Is there an insulation that can stay in a pack and still be effective?
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I have yet to find any insulation material I'd feel comfortable leaving compressed for very long, at least for the type used in sleeping bags. I ruined a Wiggy's bag (synthetic) by doing just that several years ago even though they claimed it wouldn't hurt it....and that was after leaving it compressed for just a few months.

gruntinhusaybah said:
how about not compressed but stored loosely inside a seperate pod attached to a pack?
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As long as the down has room to loft up some it should be fine. Most sleeping bags come with a storage sack and a stuff sack for just that reason.
 
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