question about framelocks

[Esav Benyamin]

Even a "nested" liner is the structural part of the knife. The scales on a liner-lock knife are not what give it its strength.

I disagree. You can find many knives with what A.G.Russell calls airweight construction: Micarta handle slabs are all the structural support, no metal liners needed. This works very nicely with lockbacks and slipjoints.

It is only when the metal liners and the handle slabs are identical in profile that there is any confusion between linerlock and framelock. For example, in the Ontario Hossom Retribution folders, the liners are so thick, and the lockside liner is even relieved like a framelock, that if you removed the handle slabs, the knife would function exactly the same.

 

[diamdave]

Also with a frame lock, the tighter you squeeze the knife, the harder it locks because your hand is pressing directly agaist the lock and keeps it from sliding out.

Sometimes. My Shallot has the pocket clip where I like it, but it covers the lockside of the framelock, so the harder I squeeze the harder I squeeze the pocket clip.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Sometimes. My Shallot has the pocket clip where I like it, but it covers the lockside of the framelock, so the harder I squeeze the harder I squeeze the pocket clip.

True. But the clip placement also serves as an overtravel stop, like the Hinderer device on Striders.

 

[elkins45]

Sometimes. My Shallot has the pocket clip where I like it, but it covers the lockside of the framelock, so the harder I squeeze the harder I squeeze the pocket clip.

Wouldn't that force then be transferred to the lock bar?

 

[Planterz]

More than likely not. All the framelocks I know, the pocket clip either contacts the non-lock part of the frame entirely, or it's half/half imposed over the frame and the lock bar. None that I know of have the pocket clip contacting only the lock bar.

 

[diamdave]

On the Shallot, the pocket clip fasten via two .... torx?....above where the frame lock pushes in to hold the blade open. Squeezing the clip doesn't move the clip, it is pretty much solid, but it also doesn't enhance the frame lock mechanism like it did on my old Benchmade framelock many years ago.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

All the framelocks I know, the pocket clip either contacts the non-lock part of the frame entirely, or it's half/half imposed over the frame and the lock bar. None that I know of have the pocket clip contacting only the lock bar.

Sebenza. Pocket clip rests only against the lock bar.

 

[Planterz]

Oops.

Been too long since I handled one.

 

[Masteroffajitas]

Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing.

 

[J.Mattson]

As mentioned above you may wanna look at the Kershaw Groove it has a frame lock and very good G10 scales, I really like mine.

 

[Dekz]

You could have the thickest, strongest liner in all the land, but if the scales are weak, the lock is weak and the knife is weak.

So if I took a framelock and slapped some weak scales on the sides, it would suddenly become a weak knife with a weak lock?

High quality linerlocks like Emersons, the Microtech LCC, and the Spyderco Military are popular for a reason, and occurrences of lock failure are rare or even unheard of. But they're still linerlocks, and by definition, a linerlock isn't as strong or secure as a framelock of equal quality of manufacture.

The only design difference between a linerlock and a framelock is that the framelock lets you squeeze the lock bar. That is it. The thread I started was intended to find out exactly what the difference is between a framelock and a linerlock and that was the conclusion. So I'll give you more secure, but I don't see how you could argue that a linerlock and a framelock of equal quality are not of equal strength.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=620647

You can't argue that frame locks are thicker because that is not always the case. Many of my "liner" lock knives would operate at 100% with the scales removed. Maybe it's because my collection seems to have many of the "exceptions" to these rules.

The Junkyard Dog II has a thicker liner lock than some frame locks.

The Groove is considered a frame lock even though it has a G10 scale covering the lock bar.

The Boker Trance has a framelock on one side and a nested liner on the other.

I disagree. You can find many knives with what A.G.Russell calls airweight construction: Micarta handle slabs are all the structural support, no metal liners needed. This works very nicely with lockbacks and slipjoints.

Well OBVIOUSLY knives that are designed to be linerless do not get their structural support from liners.

 

[elkins45]

The only design difference between a linerlock and a framelock is that the framelock lets you squeeze the lock bar. That is it.

Yes, and that's an importance difference. It could mean the difference between retaining your index finger or not. I have had a liner lock come loose under torque, but never a framelock.

Of course, a lot of that advantage potentially goes away if you're holding it upside down for an upward cut.:grumpy:

 

[Planterz]

So if I took a framelock and slapped some weak scales on the sides, it would suddenly become a weak knife with a weak lock?

Don't be fatuous. If you're going to make fallacious arguments, at least do me the courtesy of not taking my words completely out of context. Your point was that a linerlock knife with a nested liner gained its strength from the liner. My counterpoint was that a linerlock with a nested liner needed strength from the scales to support said liner, or else the knife and the lock would be weak. Bringing up a framelock with "weak scales" is an asinine non sequeter, and I'll ask you to do me the favor stop wasting my time with such inane drivel.

The only design difference between a linerlock and a framelock is that the framelock lets you squeeze the lock bar. That is it. The thread I started was intended to find out exactly what the difference is between a framelock and a linerlock and that was the conclusion.

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. In the case of a nested liner, it isn't. In the case of a thick linerlock like the JYD, it's still a linerlock, no matter how thick, if the scales prevent your hand from directly squeezing, then it's less secure than an equal frame lock.

So I'll give you more secure, but I don't see how you could argue that a linerlock and a framelock of equal quality are not of equal strength.

I never argued otherwise.

You can't argue that frame locks are thicker because that is not always the case.

I never said it was always the case. But it's definitely a majority.

Many of my "liner" lock knives would operate at 100% with the scales removed.

Possibly, it would depend on if the knife in question was designed to rely on the scale for strength. If the scale does nothing for strength, but only adds to ergos, then you're still wrong; it wouldn't be 100%. It'd be more. That's my whole damn point.

The Groove is considered a frame lock even though it has a G10 scale covering the lock bar.

That's called an overlay. I'll grant that on this particular knife the overlay may prevent a true framelock-secure grip. But it's still a framelock with overlay.

The Boker Trance has a framelock on one side and a nested liner on the other.

So? It's a framelock with a liner and scale on the opposite side. The liner has nothing whatsoever to do with the lock, so why bring it up?

 

[trimcut123]

Framelock's are more secure.. The grip.. Thickness, amount of tension.. Some are bad.. But a good one is much better than a linerlock.. otherwise I would carry one..

 

[STR]

I look at the difference in the same way I look at the difference between a two wheel drive passenger car and a four wheel drive SUV or truck.

Frame locks were invented to be harder use. They hold up better, offer more surface area to wear against for the blade, tend to be more rigid and less flexing or responsive to twists and lateral stresses, and they offer the fingers some semblance of physical support to get in and squeeze the lock toward a better contact when designed as well as they can be. They fit a need better much like a truck or a Jeep fit a need better than a car did.

Both can get you where you want to go. I mean you can take your Ford LTD off on a goat trail and maybe even get away with it if you don't venture in too far and get back out before its too late but if you push it too far you may end up wishing you'd had the right tool for the job and taken the truck. You can use your cuticle cleaner/mail opener gents folder to hard stab or defend against man or beast maybe once if something comes up but if you end up in a real mess thats long term or if you think you may be prone to that more than once but potentially many times you are better off with a tool capable of doing that better each time the need arises.

Frame locks like the one that started it all, the Reeve Integral Locking folder were designed to work harder and do it better and last longer doing it and true to their design they do just that. Looks were secondary in the intent and purpose of the design. I think they look good today but like many when I first saw one I thought it looked incomplete like something was missing. Once you grasp that concept of "looks be darned" and realize its all about function and reliability you start to overlook the aesthetics factor and appreciate it for what it is and like it. At least I did.

STR

 

[Dekz]

It gives the knife strength, and that strength supports the liner. You could have the thickest, strongest liner in all the land, but if the scales are weak, the lock is weak and the knife is weak.

You said this, it is a direct quote, and it is a completely ridiculous statement. How could the "thickest, strongest liner in all the land" be weak?

I never argued otherwise.

Yes, you did. I'll quote you again:

But they're still linerlocks, and by definition, a linerlock isn't as strong or secure as a framelock of equal quality of manufacture.

That's called an overlay. I'll grant that on this particular knife the overlay may prevent a true framelock-secure grip. But it's still a framelock with overlay.

Lmao. Then what's the difference between a frame-lock with an overlay and a linerlock?

I'm not trying to be difficult, my goal here is the same as it was in my thread that I linked. To establish a clear and exact definition of the difference between a linerlock and a framelock. The only thing that has come close is that your grip squeezes a framelock for more secure lockup. But then you go and call the Groove a framelock when it clearly does not fit this criteria, and we are back at square one.

 

[Tripton]

Lmao. Then what's the difference between a frame-lock with an overlay and a linerlock?

I'm not trying to be difficult, my goal here is the same as it was in my thread that I linked. To establish a clear and exact definition of the difference between a linerlock and a framelock. The only thing that has come close is that your grip squeezes a framelock for more secure lockup. But then you go and call the Groove a framelock when it clearly does not fit this criteria, and we are back at square one.

What exactly are you not getting here? There is an obvious difference here, it is well known, and arguing about it is moot.

If you call a tire a wheel are you right? No. Even if you argue that it is with illogical statements.


Take apart a Sebenza and a Blur. Tell me that there is no essential difference. Also note just how much strength the liner lock "adds" to the Blur.

 

[Dekz]

What exactly are you not getting here? There is an obvious difference here, it is well known, and arguing about it is moot.

Please explain why the Junkyard Dog II is a liner lock and the Groove is a frame lock when both of them have G10 covering the lock bar.

If the difference is obvious and well known, you should be able to answer this question with a simple sentence.

 

[STR]

The liner and frame locks are both integral locks. The frame lock is mostly or all open framed allowing some or total physical contact with the lock by the hand wrapped around it. The liner lock has a full scale blocking that access to the lock.

A Groove is a frame lock just like a JunkYardDog II with the SG2 blade is a frame lock even if it does sport a pocket clip so big and set up for tip down carry that it blocks the hand and fingers from securing the lock about as effectively as the full scale of a liner lock does.

The jury is still out as to the partial scales and half moon cut out scales, raised or higher profile locks that have traction grooves or ridges and sit up higher than both scales and whether or not they actually add any security or benefit or just the opposite. Some argue they make the lock more of a liability than if you just removed them and leveled the lock so it sat flush with the scales and didn't stick up above it.

The differences are subtle at times. Arguing over which is which is really pointless since both work the same. Even the reliability factor is debated by some who believe liner locks are better. I don't but some do.

STR

 

[Dekz]

To add to the confusion, Kershawknives.com lists the JYDIICB as a Frame lock.

I think we agree on the definition, but IMO the Groove should be considered a liner lock.