question about framelocks

[Planterz]

Apparently you're having a hard time keeping track of the argument.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. In almost all cases a linerlock is just a framelock with a scale over it.

Not true. Many perhaps, possibly even a majority. But certainly not "almost all". Kershaw makes many linerlocks with a "nested" liner. So does Buck, Benchmade, and Spyderco (including one of the most famous linerlocks of all time, the Military).

Even a "nested" liner is the structural part of the knife.

Not so much. A nested liner is only strong if the handles have enough strength to support it. A knife that relied on a nested liner for its overall strength would be a weak knife indeed, with a rather iffy lock.

It gives the knife strength, and that strength supports the liner. You could have the thickest, strongest liner in all the land, but if the scales are weak, the lock is weak and the knife is weak.

So if I took a framelock and slapped some weak scales on the sides, it would suddenly become a weak knife with a weak lock?

Don't be fatuous. If you're going to make fallacious arguments, at least do me the courtesy of not taking my words completely out of context. Your point was that a linerlock knife with a nested liner gained its strength from the liner. My counterpoint was that a linerlock with a nested liner needed strength from the scales to support said liner, or else the knife and the lock would be weak. Bringing up a framelock with "weak scales" is an asinine non sequeter, and I'll ask you to do me the favor stop wasting my time with such inane drivel.

You said this, it is a direct quote, and it is a completely ridiculous statement. How could the "thickest, strongest liner in all the land" be weak?

IF THE SCALES AREN'T STRONG ENOUGH TO SUPPORT THE LINER, THE LOCK AND THE WHOLE KNIFE IS WEAK.

If you can't wrap your head around this, then I don't know what else I can do for you.

The one important thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, that always gets mentioned when the Frame v. Liner argument rears its periodic head, is that quality of manufacture is just as important. High quality linerlocks like Emersons, the Microtech LCC, and the Spyderco Military are popular for a reason, and occurrences of lock failure are rare or even unheard of. But they're still linerlocks, and by definition, a linerlock isn't as strong or secure as a framelock of equal quality of manufacture.

So I'll give you more secure, but I don't see how you could argue that a linerlock and a framelock of equal quality are not of equal strength.

I never argued otherwise.

Yes, you did. I'll quote you [out of context]again:

But they're still linerlocks, and by definition, a linerlock isn't as strong or secure as a framelock of equal quality of manufacture.

Because quality and strength are two different properties. I'll grant that one might imply the other, but not necessarily, and that wasn't the point I was making. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been. The point I was making is that simply being a framelock doesn't imply strength, and simply being a linerlock doesn't imply weakness. Quality of manufacture is every bit as important.

But since you seem intent on pressing the point, consider this scenario:

1. Spyderco Military with nested liner lock.

2. Remove bottom G10 scale and replace nested liner with equal thickness titanium frame lock slab. This is now a frame lock.

3. Add G10 scale of original thickness to bottom of titanium. This is now a liner lock.

The 2nd knife will obviously be stronger than the 1st knife, and more secure. However, the 3rd knife will be less secure than the second knife, despite having equal lock strength because the G10 scale prevents the lockbar from being gripped tighter.

This ain't rocket surgery here.

Please explain why the Junkyard Dog II is a liner lock and the Groove is a frame lock when both of them have G10 covering the lock bar.

I had to look up the JYDII, as I'm not terribly familiar with it. The JYD is unarguably a frame lock. The JYDII seems to be available as a framelock (titanium handles model 1725SG2) and a couple variations of G10 scaled linerlock. I can't find images that show a good comparison of the thickness of the handles/scales of them. It looks like the G10 scaled ones have very thick liners indeed, but the G10 also looks like it's adding a lot to the overall structural strength of the knife. That means linerlock to me, no matter how thick. I can't be 100% though without actually handling them or seeing a direct comparison picture.

As for the Groove, yes, lines are getting blured here. The G10 overlays add nothing to the structural strength of the knife. Removing them makes the knife a framelock, without any doubt. But having the overlay there, even if it blocks the hand from gripping the frame, that doesn't really make it a linerlock. Opinions may vary, but mine is that it's a framelock with an overlay, and one that, if I owned the knife, would modify so I could better squeeze the lock tighter.

If the difference is obvious and well known, you should be able to answer this question with a simple sentence.

Well, it's not. That's why this thread and all the posts within exist. Lines are being blurred continually with new innovation and new technology.

That's because both designs are compromises. Aesthetics and ergonomics are always subjective. Some people don't like all-metal framelocks and would prefer a linerlock with grippier handles. Lots of people don't like linerlocks, and are OK with all-metal handles, or the asymmetry of a metal lock scale and a G10 (or other material) top scale. Some want the strength and security of a framelock, but aren't OK with the asymmetry. That's where designs like the Groove come in; framelocks with partial overlays, or even inlays, like some Sebenzas.

In the end, there will always be compromise between the 2 designs, and the ones that do the best aesthetic and ergonomic job of compromising between form and function will likely be the ones that blur the "standard" descriptions.

 

[Tripton]

Please explain why the Junkyard Dog II is a liner lock and the Groove is a frame lock when both of them have G10 covering the lock bar.

If the difference is obvious and well known, you should be able to answer this question with a simple sentence.

Because the JYD2 uses a liner as the locking mechanism and the Groove uses a portion of the frame. The G10 on the groove is just a superficial addition.





You...um...ever think about getting into Axis locks? Lock backs?