Question about prototypes...

Lander boy Matt said:
I have also wondered about this, while I dont have any prototypes, i do have this Schatt and Morgan "factory sample". It seems to me that it is slightly unrefined, and possibly meant to be a sort of a rough idea of what would eventually be produced at the factory, with a few changes here or there. As you can see ( hopefully in my poor pics) the bolsters are different lengths pile side to mark side.View attachment 1449753 View attachment 1449754 Its my guess that the prototype would be the first piece made after all the refinements are made and before production actually begins??
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I think a factory sample should be pretty good; everyone kind of has their own way of doing stuff so it could be something the factory would send to the production team for approval. Either they OK it and the run goes live or they pull the cord and send it back to have issues addressed.
 
I have another knife I consider a real Prototype!!:eek:
Before my first run of TC Barlows was made, Bill sent me this one to approve!:rolleyes:TC Proto 1.jpg TC Proto 2.jpg TC Proto 3.jpg
I asked him to make the sawcut bone handles with a more pronounced texture! Everything else was super; so the bone was changed,
(And a Star was born!!):D:D
Bill told me he used up the first bone he had cut (6-7 knives worth!)
If you have one with barely perceptible saw marks, it might be an early one!!;)
 
Camillus said:
That’s one way of recusing yourself, but not what the term ‘recusing yourself’ ordinarily means.

The dealer in question is fantastic, and shouldn’t be judged adversely just because he doesn’t buy a spot and a voice on these forums.

I would be very pleased to have one of these rare knives, among the last made by Queen, a great company.
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Definition: (of a judge) excuse oneself from a case because of a possible conflict of interest or lack of impartiality.

I neither said anything negative about the dealer; nor have anything negative to say about the dealer. Queen, on the other hand, made a lot of poor knives in the last years.

Blades of Glory Blades of Glory there ya go - your knife came from a fantastic dealer and a great company. Thus your experienced grading of "condition is far from perfect or even new. Couple small dings on the bolsters. Caplifter has some deep scuffs. Can't tell if it's from a poor finish or use of the knife. Gritty open and close on both blades" may warrant a closer look. As your first assessment must be incorrect ;)
 
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I have quite a few prototypes from Tuna Valley, Case, Queen/S&M, Bear, Prater, etc. The biggest factor (which has already been said) is that A.) they were issued before the general production run, and B.) they are verifiable that they are an offical proto. Most of mine all have a signed COA, or were serial # stamped in the bolster 0000 or PROTO. But, as has been said, there are general production knives that people laser etch PROTO just to increase their resale value.
 
Rookie82 said:
I have quite a few prototypes from Tuna Valley, Case, Queen/S&M, Bear, Prater, etc. The biggest factor (which has already been said) is that A.) they were issued before the general production run, and B.) they are verifiable that they are an offical proto. Most of mine all have a signed COA, or were serial # stamped in the bolster 0000 or PROTO. But, as has been said, there are general production knives that people laser etch PROTO just to increase their resale value.
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I don't know about the rest (little experience); but Case protos are rare as hens teeth. Remember back 25 years ago the factory was looking for some late 1980's or early 1990's CCC model that they couldn't find while putting together a factory collection. I had one and contacted them and offered mine for a Case Canoe Prototype - and they traded me. Don't even know where it is at now - but that tickled me beyond words.

I remember seeing a lot of Case Classics that were "0"; then "00"; then "000", etc.
 
knifeswapper said:
I don't know about the rest (little experience); but Case protos are rare as hens teeth. Remember back 25 years ago the factory was looking for some late 1980's or early 1990's CCC model that they couldn't find while putting together a factory collection. I had one and contacted them and offered mine for a Case Canoe Prototype - and they traded me. Don't even know where it is at now - but that tickled me beyond words.

I remember seeing a lot of Case Classics that were "0"; then "00"; then "000", etc.
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I should have clarified, all my Case protos are 1 piece samples that were submitted to the NKCA each year for their submission to the yearly club knife. Most manufacturers tried to do something unique that they hadn't done before. If the NKCA Board chose the knife, it went into production, and if they chose something else, the protos just stayed in the NKCA museum. They did this from 1975-2013. Bruce Voyles did an auction in 2012 to sell off all the prototypes, to raise money to help the NKCA and National Knife Museum. That's where I got most of mine.
 
Here is a Queen Cutlery factory bone sample from 2015. The bone is pretty unique, both for color and jigging, and apparently didn't "go over," as I've never seen another. The knife itself is, however, of wonderful build quality. This was from the time when Queen was very "hit or miss" with their F&F, and this one isn't just a hit, but a homerun!

aiaomIa.jpg
 
My humble theory a prototype should be the first attempt, a learning experience. Low serial #’s don’t matter to me either. I feel the 100th knife in a run would be better finished than the first as there is always room for improvement as you go, and they just get made better with more experience. Not regarding any maker in particular but any that have prototype knives. I wouldn’t think it would be as nice as production.
 
I think prototypes are quite subjective ...perhaps to some the proto tag is more collectable....even though it might be a dud design that never goes into production...
I would say small limited versions of production lines with ritzy scales for example are better value ....but hey its only wirgh what a collect will pay....and there we board the bus to Flipperville...
Prototype 73 is 1 of 2
The 79 is 1 of 5 with Mammoth scales .
20201107-144824.jpg
 
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I tend to think that what most veteran knife companies are calling a prototype would really be more like a test run or pre production sample.
If you think about it , how often is a standing traditional knife company actually gonna be engineering or inventing something new that would require a true work in progress prototype ?
 
No opinion on the folders but here is my only Prototype. The first Geno Denning mini GM made. It came about from a conversation I had with him on whet I would like in a small knife; he said he would see what he could do and this was the result. Geno asked me if I minded if he marked it Prototype and said this was the first time he used the prototype marking.

Denning Mini GM Proto mark .JPG Mini GM 14.jpg Mini GM 11.jpg
 
Hickory n steel said:
I tend to think that what most veteran knife companies are calling a prototype would really be more like a test run or pre production sample.
If you think about it , how often is a standing traditional knife company actually gonna be engineering or inventing something new that would require a true work in progress prototype ?
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The genuine prototypes are rarely prototypes because of the core product. Generally a test to see how a wood finishes; getting opinions on a small change, etc. I have several knives that are not marked prototype but that is exactly what they are because Bill would put one together just to show me how bad my idea was.
 
This is the only true sample or prototype I have, found it several years ago and no one had ever seen anything like it, most everyone I showed it to thought it was a fake. It's a Winchester stamped Barlow on a Queen frame, the build quality is very high.
I figured if anyone would know it would be Bill Howard so showed it to him at the 2016 Rendezvous and he confirmed it was a a sample that had been made at Queen, he stated they had one customer that required samples, usually 5 knives but when I asked him if that meant there were 4 others out there he stated not necessarily as they hated to make samples and would make as few as possible to satisfy the customer. They hated making the samples as it took a lot of time to use production machinery just to make a few knives.


IMG_4404.jpeg IMG_4398.jpeg
 
knifeswapper said:
The genuine prototypes are rarely prototypes because of the core product. Generally a test to see how a wood finishes; getting opinions on a small change, etc. I have several knives that are not marked prototype but that is exactly what they are because Bill would put one together just to show me how bad my idea was.
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Nothing like seeing it in hand, to help understanding, and help making decisions!!!!:eek::D
 
So there seems to be a blurred area of what actually constitutes a prototype vs test run....and Im beginning to think a lot of what we are seeing as prototypes are in fact test runs around an existing thing....eg the yellow 73 in my pic....
 
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