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Question for Cliff Stamp re: Ed Fowler's knives...
- Thread starter Mongo
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Buzz,
Thanks for the posts, I respect what you've said. It sounds like you have the right perspective about it. (Since you're in a good mood...how do feel about wrestling greased hogs?)
Jose,
Should we call our friend, Evan?
Mike,
I once knew a man who spent 45 minutes talking to Einstein. He was a retired teacher of the blind who lived on the Isle of Palms, SC. His name was George and wife, Kitty. Living on the beach, in retirement. Nice man. Honor to know him. He lived through the Great Depression and had stories to tell. He served my friends and I rubarb pancakes, told us rubarb was all they had to eat back then... You made me remember.
Brownshoe,
Great stuff!
David
Thanks for the posts, I respect what you've said. It sounds like you have the right perspective about it. (Since you're in a good mood...how do feel about wrestling greased hogs?)
Jose,
Should we call our friend, Evan?
Mike,
I once knew a man who spent 45 minutes talking to Einstein. He was a retired teacher of the blind who lived on the Isle of Palms, SC. His name was George and wife, Kitty. Living on the beach, in retirement. Nice man. Honor to know him. He lived through the Great Depression and had stories to tell. He served my friends and I rubarb pancakes, told us rubarb was all they had to eat back then... You made me remember.
Brownshoe,
Great stuff!
David
- Joined
- Mar 19, 1999
- Messages
- 620
Hey Joe,
Maybe you or anybody else knowledgable should post what you would consider to be appropriate tests for this knife. That way some of us less knowledgable people could better evaluate Cliff's testing methods. Also it would be great if Ed would post his current version of the intended use for this knife, and how he would like to see it tested. If nobody gives their input then they shouldn't criticize Cliff's test.
Also everybody who seems to be attacking Cliff on this thread Why don't you back off and either offer some constructive comments or wait till after the review before you start whining. I must say I have great respect for Ed Fowler. He has answered many questions I have had on these forums, and he has earned a remarkable reputation in the knife world. His reactions to this thread have surprised me a little. Ed does make many bold claims about his knives. I beleive that they are accurate claims. All you Fowler fans, like myself need to have faith in the knife that it will impress the hell out of Cliff.
Kyle Fuglesten
Maybe you or anybody else knowledgable should post what you would consider to be appropriate tests for this knife. That way some of us less knowledgable people could better evaluate Cliff's testing methods. Also it would be great if Ed would post his current version of the intended use for this knife, and how he would like to see it tested. If nobody gives their input then they shouldn't criticize Cliff's test.
Also everybody who seems to be attacking Cliff on this thread Why don't you back off and either offer some constructive comments or wait till after the review before you start whining. I must say I have great respect for Ed Fowler. He has answered many questions I have had on these forums, and he has earned a remarkable reputation in the knife world. His reactions to this thread have surprised me a little. Ed does make many bold claims about his knives. I beleive that they are accurate claims. All you Fowler fans, like myself need to have faith in the knife that it will impress the hell out of Cliff.
Kyle Fuglesten
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...Just 'cause he says he's wrong sometimes, doesn't deny his consistent claims of correctness in the face of any dissension.
I am not following your logic here. Should he prephrase his every statement with something like "this is wrong", or "this might be wrong"? Obviously when making a statement one is sure he's right. Later if tha tturns out to be wronge one one either coudl admit it was wrong, or insist regardless. IMHO he manages to do the former. Again, everyone makes mistakes, only the God is infallable.
By Cliff's logic, i.e. can't believe any knifemaker 'cause they are biased, we, as readers, should not believe any statement Cliff makes about his lack of bias or his testing methods because by nature he is biased.
For one, I don't think Cliff or anybody else asked to believe in everythign he says. You have your own head to use, make your own judgement. As buzzbait said he's not a robot, so are the makers correct? How can the maker be totaly unbiased, after all he takes pride in his work. Everything is relative, bias too.
In the end, this is all business. You pay for the product, don't you? If you want to believe only what the maker says, that's your business, if you want to belive only Cliff, that again your decision, though I'd listen to both sides and make my own conclusions.
All that has nothing to do with insults and name calling that was going on in this thread. You may not believe a single word one says, yet that's not a reason to start a flame war.
And what are the other arguments used to discredit him? He's not a knifemaker? By that logic you would hardly have a single movie critic, as practically none of them make movies. When you want a movie review U call Spielberg or just read review in the magazine or online?
He's a self-appointed knife scientist. His scientific technique does not withstand inspection by scientists, and many knifemakers and users who know what they are doing.
Pardon, but I am not sure who's specifically appointed independent knife scientist out there? As for the users, Cliff doesn't qualify for a user?
The reason this forum is interesting to me, is to hear independent opinion from the users. Otherwise there are plenty of knife magazines and you can read them all you want. That is if you honestly believe they are not biased.
I've seen plenty of "scientists" criticising his methods, fine, but none of them ever came up with a single idea how to at least test sharpness, let alone other properties.
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What has transpired in this thread is that without even waiting to see what Cliff will report on Ed's knife, it has been assumed that he will do a hatchet job. I prefer to wait and see, Cliff may surprise the naysayers. Why not wait and see?
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And why not, for those who are concerned about Cliff's methodology, suggest some appropriate tests yourself (as kile suggests)? I for one would like to see how the edge holds up to somewhat abrasive materials when the edge is subjected to moderate (not severe) stresses. Cutting abrasive rope on a cutting board requires some edge strength, cutting cardboard requires a little toughness due to embedded grit. I'd like to see a few tests like these done before the edge is subjected to anything more likely to tear, chip, or indent it. Edge retention in the presence of moderate stress is IMO one of the most applicable areas for smaller camp knives. Higher stress stuff is applicable as well of course
Joe
Joe
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Well, I have posted some lite-hearted post in this thread in hopes of some releif, but it does not appear to be coming . So here are my thoughts for testing and I feel Buzzbaits were outstanding.
I feel the knife in question should be straped on in the early A.M. and worn until bed time . Use that knife ONLY for all your needs.This should be done for a minimum of at least 2 months.What ever your needs for a knife are then evaluate it from that point.If you feel the knife was dull at reception then send it to the maker and have him put an edge on it like all he sends out then test it. A knife is more than what abuse one can level on it. Carry that sheath for a while and all others pale in the ability to stay put and make the knife readily accessible when needed .
I have not always agreed with Ed , as I stated last year in a thread , I have a whole lot better tools to cut crossties with!! But , Ed has opened my eyes to a whole different world when it comes to knifes and their making. I will also say that I owe the same respect to Bill Burke. To truly evaluate a knife like a Pronghorn one must live with it for long periods of time,then you come to realise its' true potential and all that was put into the years of evolution on this design. I have never put much stock in someones short evaluation of a knife ,be it a knife mag. editor or an outside tester.Use the knife for what it was ment to be Cliff, an all around knife to use in both good and bad situations.
I may have mistook your post Cliff, about the thickness of the blade. At first you stated the knives were to flexable but when you got this knife it seemed as if now you are disappointed that it was built stout.And yes the handle if I recall is for left hand folks so the swell will be into that palm and more hollow in the finger recess area.
I look forward to the final write up of this blade.I know many reading this are saying," Ah hell he is just a Burke, Fowler grouppie."Well, as I told a maker just recently who is making me another carry knife , " Make me what you want but I have already chosen my daily carry knives" and they damn sure have big sheep horn handles!!!!
Regards,
Jerry
I feel the knife in question should be straped on in the early A.M. and worn until bed time . Use that knife ONLY for all your needs.This should be done for a minimum of at least 2 months.What ever your needs for a knife are then evaluate it from that point.If you feel the knife was dull at reception then send it to the maker and have him put an edge on it like all he sends out then test it. A knife is more than what abuse one can level on it. Carry that sheath for a while and all others pale in the ability to stay put and make the knife readily accessible when needed .
I have not always agreed with Ed , as I stated last year in a thread , I have a whole lot better tools to cut crossties with!! But , Ed has opened my eyes to a whole different world when it comes to knifes and their making. I will also say that I owe the same respect to Bill Burke. To truly evaluate a knife like a Pronghorn one must live with it for long periods of time,then you come to realise its' true potential and all that was put into the years of evolution on this design. I have never put much stock in someones short evaluation of a knife ,be it a knife mag. editor or an outside tester.Use the knife for what it was ment to be Cliff, an all around knife to use in both good and bad situations.
I may have mistook your post Cliff, about the thickness of the blade. At first you stated the knives were to flexable but when you got this knife it seemed as if now you are disappointed that it was built stout.And yes the handle if I recall is for left hand folks so the swell will be into that palm and more hollow in the finger recess area.
I look forward to the final write up of this blade.I know many reading this are saying," Ah hell he is just a Burke, Fowler grouppie."Well, as I told a maker just recently who is making me another carry knife , " Make me what you want but I have already chosen my daily carry knives" and they damn sure have big sheep horn handles!!!!
Regards,
Jerry
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- 1,922
Ok, I lied. I posted again.
I'd add that cutting old dirty carpet might be another abrasive test that could yield some results of interest, but only if compared with other knives, some with other steels, D2 and 3V being 2 I'd like to see compared. Heck, how about a simple, well heat treated blade of 1095 at same hardness (52100 only adds 1.3% to 1.6% chrome over 1084 or 1095's composition).
Cardboard is probably more uniform, but personally, I've cut up a good bit of carpet lately and it sure dulls my M2 folder, primarily abrasively. (Dirty animal hide, like a wild pig, would be a good real world test, but uniformity of testing protocol with various knives is not easy to achieve).
The real value in using a rather simple carbon steel is toughness of the edge, and strength of the tip. So as Joe suggested, then get into more stressful cutting. Something that is likely to chip the edge without being abusive. Cutting light gauge wire or staples embedded in thin wood stock (say lath or stakes) might do it. I'm sure Cliff doesn't need help finding more stressful tests of the cutting edge.
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It seems this thread gets more useless every time I read it. If there's gonna be a test of a knife let's just do it alreayd. sound like a bunch of school kids tossing around names here. So if someone's going to test a knife, do it. If not, why don't we just end this thread now. Come on people, let's start acting like the adults we claim we are.
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- Oct 3, 1998
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- 4,842
Agree strongly with rdangerer that it should be tested directly against other knives with different steels and similar edge profiles, if any can be found.
Agree (kind of) with Jerry Shipman, too, at least in spirit. I've always felt there should be two phases of testing. One, testing that's as precise and controlled as possible, testing against one other (or preferably) several other knives/steels with similar profiles. Phase two, carry the knife around with you for a few weeks to learn its idiosyncracies, learn about strengths or weaknesses that you hadn't thought to test in the controlled part, etc. This second phase can tell you a ton, and I don't consider the evaluation totally complete without it. In the end, I like to go by both the controlled tests, and the gut feel I end up having about the knife (do I like carrying it? When I reach for it, am I eager to use it, or am I irritated because it's a pain to get out of its sheath or the handle is uncomfortable, has it chipped in real life when it never chipped in testing or vice versa?).
Agree (kind of) with Jerry Shipman, too, at least in spirit. I've always felt there should be two phases of testing. One, testing that's as precise and controlled as possible, testing against one other (or preferably) several other knives/steels with similar profiles. Phase two, carry the knife around with you for a few weeks to learn its idiosyncracies, learn about strengths or weaknesses that you hadn't thought to test in the controlled part, etc. This second phase can tell you a ton, and I don't consider the evaluation totally complete without it. In the end, I like to go by both the controlled tests, and the gut feel I end up having about the knife (do I like carrying it? When I reach for it, am I eager to use it, or am I irritated because it's a pain to get out of its sheath or the handle is uncomfortable, has it chipped in real life when it never chipped in testing or vice versa?).
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Hey all,
Prompted by an e-mail from one of the good guys on this forum I've decided to begin my own round of tests. I have no experience with this so if you have any good ideas feel free to send me an e-mail. For the moment I'm not planning on any "overly wearful" tests, I'm thinking more along the lines of tests based on real world applications.
The first round of tests are as follows. I used my 4 3/4" blade pronghorn.
1. At the Blade show I was able to catch the cutting competiton and got the idea to see how much kindling I could shave off a 2x2 in 1 minute. The 2x2 was WW grade(white wood?), and was pretty soft compared to the HT grade(?) 2x6 that I used in the other tests.
2. Then I attempted to chop through the 2x2. I began by cutting the edges and then started to swing with more power to chop/smash through the wood.
3. Next I switched over to one of the 2x6's. I stabbed the tip of the knife into the wood and used a twisting and prying motion to create a hole.
Here's a closeup, zero damage to the blade. You can see the "practice swings" I took to see how deeply the blade would penetrate and to close in on my "aim". There's some sap(?) on the blade from the wood.
4. Next I attempted to chop through the 2x6, as in the cutting competitons. The blade was a bit too short and light to be really effective at this, and my technique suffered. I also realized how out of shape I am and decided that instead of wearing myself out I'd try another knife.
5. I switched over to my thickest camp knife, with about a 6 1/2" blade. The length and weight of the blade took most of the effort out of it, and also helped to stabilize my swings. A couple of inches in I ran into a couple of knots in the wood that slowed me down. That's when I began to really put some power behind my swings. I cut from a crouch so I couldn't get as much leverage or power as possible, but once I got through the knots it was smooth sailing from there. This is also where I developed an even bigger appreciation of all the guys on the competition circuit...
6. Then I tried it again with one of my bowies, it's about the same length as the heavy camp knife but thinner. The difference was very noticeable and I was able to chop through in about half the time. I also started off with full power swings this time and didn't run into as much knotty material.
No damage to any of the blades, they were still shaving sharp afterwards.
-Jose
Prompted by an e-mail from one of the good guys on this forum I've decided to begin my own round of tests. I have no experience with this so if you have any good ideas feel free to send me an e-mail. For the moment I'm not planning on any "overly wearful" tests, I'm thinking more along the lines of tests based on real world applications.
The first round of tests are as follows. I used my 4 3/4" blade pronghorn.
1. At the Blade show I was able to catch the cutting competiton and got the idea to see how much kindling I could shave off a 2x2 in 1 minute. The 2x2 was WW grade(white wood?), and was pretty soft compared to the HT grade(?) 2x6 that I used in the other tests.
2. Then I attempted to chop through the 2x2. I began by cutting the edges and then started to swing with more power to chop/smash through the wood.
3. Next I switched over to one of the 2x6's. I stabbed the tip of the knife into the wood and used a twisting and prying motion to create a hole.
Here's a closeup, zero damage to the blade. You can see the "practice swings" I took to see how deeply the blade would penetrate and to close in on my "aim". There's some sap(?) on the blade from the wood.
4. Next I attempted to chop through the 2x6, as in the cutting competitons. The blade was a bit too short and light to be really effective at this, and my technique suffered. I also realized how out of shape I am and decided that instead of wearing myself out I'd try another knife.
5. I switched over to my thickest camp knife, with about a 6 1/2" blade. The length and weight of the blade took most of the effort out of it, and also helped to stabilize my swings. A couple of inches in I ran into a couple of knots in the wood that slowed me down. That's when I began to really put some power behind my swings. I cut from a crouch so I couldn't get as much leverage or power as possible, but once I got through the knots it was smooth sailing from there. This is also where I developed an even bigger appreciation of all the guys on the competition circuit...
6. Then I tried it again with one of my bowies, it's about the same length as the heavy camp knife but thinner. The difference was very noticeable and I was able to chop through in about half the time. I also started off with full power swings this time and didn't run into as much knotty material.
No damage to any of the blades, they were still shaving sharp afterwards.
-Jose
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- Aug 12, 2002
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- 2,259
Finally, some real information in this thread, and it only took ten pages of posts.
Definitely a good start, though I'm sure some other tests could be come up with(not that I can think of any off top of my head. Sorta having same problem with passaround knife I have right now.
)
So come on people, someone give him some more tests. I could come up with some, but would rather see what other people come up with.
Definitely a good start, though I'm sure some other tests could be come up with(not that I can think of any off top of my head. Sorta having same problem with passaround knife I have right now.
)So come on people, someone give him some more tests. I could come up with some, but would rather see what other people come up with.
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- Oct 3, 1998
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- 4,842
Jose,
Thanks for the tests! I admire anyone who'll put themselves and their high-$ custom knives out there. Nice stuff, thanks for taking the time and put up pics.
One comment I'd make, if you don't mind. I think those were interesting tests, but if you don't duplicate the same tests with another similarly-profiled knife, I have no idea how tough those tests really are or how to interpret the results. Would a knife of roughly the same profile but made of 420J2 perform the same? Well, we don't know, right? In my opinion (I know opinions differ), you can't draw conclusions about knife performance by testing a knife in isolation; you don't know how tough a test is until you test multiple knives on the same tests. This is not a criticism I'm just bringing out for you -- in contrast to what you'll see a bit of in this string, I apply my standards equally to everyone, whether it's Cliff, Ed, you, or me, and whether the comments are good, bad, or indifferent.
I hope you'll take this for what it's meant to be. I'm honestly grateful you went out and put your Pronghorn to the test for us, and I think just duplicating the tests would make the results even more meaningful.
Joe
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,152
Joe,
I agree, although at this point I am a bit hesistant to test my knives against my other, or someone else's, custom knives. This was just the first round of testing, when I get the time I plan on running a few more and posting the results.
If you'd like to offer any suggestions you can contact me by e-mail, I'd me more than happy to have some guidance.
-Jose
I agree, although at this point I am a bit hesistant to test my knives against my other, or someone else's, custom knives. This was just the first round of testing, when I get the time I plan on running a few more and posting the results.
If you'd like to offer any suggestions you can contact me by e-mail, I'd me more than happy to have some guidance.
-Jose
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Oct 5, 1998
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- 17,562
c.m. arrington :
[me]
No.
Buzz :
Ed talked about this in the video, and I have exchanged emails with him about such issues and others. He has also commented briefly in this thread. He is of course free to add any details at any time.
[a knifemaker should tell the reivewer what to do]
What happens when two knifemakers make the exact same knife, but have different perspectives on scope of use. Relative performance is only meaningful when compared to other knives, thus how do you compare those two. if you go by the standard of the more broad knifemaker you are labeled abusive, if you go by the more narrow standard you ignore all the benefits of the other knife.
Secondly, the main purpose of the reviews is NOT to grade the knife, it never was. While that is a common goal for some, it isn't one of mine. The principal purpose was always one of understanding performance which is why *some* of the work has nothing to do with the intended use of the knife. This work of course isn't use to judge the suitability of the knife for its promoted goals, it is done simply to examine steel properties or geometrical influences.
The reviews should I would hope contain enough work that such a determination could be made, but there is no reason to limit the work unless you are just interested in promoting the knife (or attacking it).
For example when using a fillet knife from Phil Wilson I took it and used it as a light machete. Phil didn't freak out and go on a rant about how abusive this was, or scope of work issues. It simply promoted an email dsicussion about stainless steels and machetes, balance aspects and the like.
No its not, of course there are makers on some level that I would like to succeed, which is why I take care to eliminate such bias from the results. It is why I have in the past for example done blind tests on knives (I didn't know the steel or heat treatment) to see if the results were influenced by what I assumed would happen or if the tests were robust enough to withstand such influences. It is also why on a regular basis I have others duplicate what I have done to make sure I am not swinging harder with one knife, or getting sloppy (you can check these in other ways however).
It is also why the reviews contain links to threads like this where someone is free to come in and point out where work was left out which would illustrate strong or weak points of the knife. Such threads also on occasion contain references to people attacking the reviews, and me and I include them as well, because it is seen as valuable information to some, my opinion on its worth doesn't limit its inclusion. Threads like these are nother way to keep the reviewer honest as they are not alone in deciding what should be done. It is also why I am constantly sending out knives I have reviewed to others for additional perspectives.
There are however some people I would not want to do a public review of knives for because I am very good friends with them, so much so that being unbiased about them would be too difficult or put a strain on personal relationships. Muhamad Irwan for example is a custom knifemaker in Malyasia who is a close personal friend of mine. He has talked about coming here to start up a knifemaking business. I would not be a good choice to review his knives as I don't want to see him to badly, and even if I could be unbiased, I would not expect anyone outside of people who knew me to actually beleive that.
However most knifmakers I have never met, only a couple I have actually taked to, and thus I can easily treat them as faceless individuals, and treat the work independent of the maker, which I believe the reviews and my posts speak towards.
Jose :
This will be done if Gaben is interested, obviously it comes after the cutting and edge retention work. This weekend finished the fourth round of hemp cutting, which will be repeated on a few other knives of similar geometry for reference. Wood whittling will follow, along with other cutting depending on what Gaben is willing to see done on his knife.
Once the cutting is done I'll ask Gaben about doing tests which could possibly damage the knife such as stabbing, prying, cutting hard materials and such. I'll probably do these with one of my knives first to let him know what he can expect in a rough way. Plus I have never done anything hard with a decent knife of this edge geometry anyway so I am somewhat curious about its limitations.
Note of course that the comment I made in no way implied a "sub standard" heat treatment. The strength of the knife in differential heat treating is critically dependent on the height of the quench (and the hardening of the spine), there is no right nor wrong in that area, just performance in one area vs another.
rdangerer :
Yes, when I compared the D2 vs 52100 blades from Ray Kirk awhile back, the D2 one outperformed the 52100 across the board until the cutting got very difficult at which point the toughness of the 52100 became the critical factor.
Joe :
Yes, I feel much the same way. This is why recent reviews have a stock testing section, and a general use section (generally a quick initial one and a longer more extended one). They also have other sections based on feedback from others, and possibly very extended use (generally the latter is only with my knives as a lot of people want their knives back in less than 1-2 years for some reason).
Yes, this is the way in which they should be read.
Gator :
You will find that I have not said much of what was attributed to in the above. And no, you should not believe anything because I said it, you listen to the arguement not the individual. If it makes sense, and forms a cohernt picture, then ok. If not, then you don't, and hopefully you tell me why so we can sort out the mistake. If there ever comes a point at which you feel you should believe something simply because I said it - start smacking yourself in the head with a 2x4 until the feeling goes away.
Jerry :
I stated that a knife which was 1/8" thick with dual tapers with an unhardened spine would not be very stiff as that is how the knives were being described. I am disappointed that it wasn't that way as I was very curious as how that could have the level of stiffness described (needing a pipe to bend ) based on using other knvies of similar design. It was contrary to what I knew, which meant I had the chance to see something new.
In general for knife use, this stock thickness has a wider scope of work, and doesn't lose a lot of cutting ability outside of very thick binding materials like 1/2" cardboard and thick vegetables. On a large chopping bowie you would want a wider aspect ratio, which Ed achieves by using a wider blade based on pictures I have seen.
Jose, appreciate the use described in the above. I have done some very light chopping with this Pronghorn and it sinks in very deeply for its sized due to the profile.
You might want to consider noting how many chops were used and/or the time, that sort of thing. This is critical as it directly relates to how much stress the knife saw in impacts and such.
Use of other knives when possible also allows for the results to be put in perspective. The best standard to use is a readily available production knife as this is something that people can easily obtain.
-Cliff
[me]
No.
Buzz :
Ed talked about this in the video, and I have exchanged emails with him about such issues and others. He has also commented briefly in this thread. He is of course free to add any details at any time.
[a knifemaker should tell the reivewer what to do]
What happens when two knifemakers make the exact same knife, but have different perspectives on scope of use. Relative performance is only meaningful when compared to other knives, thus how do you compare those two. if you go by the standard of the more broad knifemaker you are labeled abusive, if you go by the more narrow standard you ignore all the benefits of the other knife.
Secondly, the main purpose of the reviews is NOT to grade the knife, it never was. While that is a common goal for some, it isn't one of mine. The principal purpose was always one of understanding performance which is why *some* of the work has nothing to do with the intended use of the knife. This work of course isn't use to judge the suitability of the knife for its promoted goals, it is done simply to examine steel properties or geometrical influences.
The reviews should I would hope contain enough work that such a determination could be made, but there is no reason to limit the work unless you are just interested in promoting the knife (or attacking it).
For example when using a fillet knife from Phil Wilson I took it and used it as a light machete. Phil didn't freak out and go on a rant about how abusive this was, or scope of work issues. It simply promoted an email dsicussion about stainless steels and machetes, balance aspects and the like.
No its not, of course there are makers on some level that I would like to succeed, which is why I take care to eliminate such bias from the results. It is why I have in the past for example done blind tests on knives (I didn't know the steel or heat treatment) to see if the results were influenced by what I assumed would happen or if the tests were robust enough to withstand such influences. It is also why on a regular basis I have others duplicate what I have done to make sure I am not swinging harder with one knife, or getting sloppy (you can check these in other ways however).
It is also why the reviews contain links to threads like this where someone is free to come in and point out where work was left out which would illustrate strong or weak points of the knife. Such threads also on occasion contain references to people attacking the reviews, and me and I include them as well, because it is seen as valuable information to some, my opinion on its worth doesn't limit its inclusion. Threads like these are nother way to keep the reviewer honest as they are not alone in deciding what should be done. It is also why I am constantly sending out knives I have reviewed to others for additional perspectives.
There are however some people I would not want to do a public review of knives for because I am very good friends with them, so much so that being unbiased about them would be too difficult or put a strain on personal relationships. Muhamad Irwan for example is a custom knifemaker in Malyasia who is a close personal friend of mine. He has talked about coming here to start up a knifemaking business. I would not be a good choice to review his knives as I don't want to see him to badly, and even if I could be unbiased, I would not expect anyone outside of people who knew me to actually beleive that.
However most knifmakers I have never met, only a couple I have actually taked to, and thus I can easily treat them as faceless individuals, and treat the work independent of the maker, which I believe the reviews and my posts speak towards.
Jose :
This will be done if Gaben is interested, obviously it comes after the cutting and edge retention work. This weekend finished the fourth round of hemp cutting, which will be repeated on a few other knives of similar geometry for reference. Wood whittling will follow, along with other cutting depending on what Gaben is willing to see done on his knife.
Once the cutting is done I'll ask Gaben about doing tests which could possibly damage the knife such as stabbing, prying, cutting hard materials and such. I'll probably do these with one of my knives first to let him know what he can expect in a rough way. Plus I have never done anything hard with a decent knife of this edge geometry anyway so I am somewhat curious about its limitations.
Note of course that the comment I made in no way implied a "sub standard" heat treatment. The strength of the knife in differential heat treating is critically dependent on the height of the quench (and the hardening of the spine), there is no right nor wrong in that area, just performance in one area vs another.
rdangerer :
Yes, when I compared the D2 vs 52100 blades from Ray Kirk awhile back, the D2 one outperformed the 52100 across the board until the cutting got very difficult at which point the toughness of the 52100 became the critical factor.
Joe :
Yes, I feel much the same way. This is why recent reviews have a stock testing section, and a general use section (generally a quick initial one and a longer more extended one). They also have other sections based on feedback from others, and possibly very extended use (generally the latter is only with my knives as a lot of people want their knives back in less than 1-2 years for some reason).
Yes, this is the way in which they should be read.
Gator :
You will find that I have not said much of what was attributed to in the above. And no, you should not believe anything because I said it, you listen to the arguement not the individual. If it makes sense, and forms a cohernt picture, then ok. If not, then you don't, and hopefully you tell me why so we can sort out the mistake. If there ever comes a point at which you feel you should believe something simply because I said it - start smacking yourself in the head with a 2x4 until the feeling goes away.
Jerry :
I stated that a knife which was 1/8" thick with dual tapers with an unhardened spine would not be very stiff as that is how the knives were being described. I am disappointed that it wasn't that way as I was very curious as how that could have the level of stiffness described (needing a pipe to bend ) based on using other knvies of similar design. It was contrary to what I knew, which meant I had the chance to see something new.
In general for knife use, this stock thickness has a wider scope of work, and doesn't lose a lot of cutting ability outside of very thick binding materials like 1/2" cardboard and thick vegetables. On a large chopping bowie you would want a wider aspect ratio, which Ed achieves by using a wider blade based on pictures I have seen.
Jose, appreciate the use described in the above. I have done some very light chopping with this Pronghorn and it sinks in very deeply for its sized due to the profile.
You might want to consider noting how many chops were used and/or the time, that sort of thing. This is critical as it directly relates to how much stress the knife saw in impacts and such.
Use of other knives when possible also allows for the results to be put in perspective. The best standard to use is a readily available production knife as this is something that people can easily obtain.
-Cliff
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Cliff,
Thanks for the pointers. I didn't count the amount of swings but it took approximately 5 minutes to stab through the 2x6 and I tried to chop through it for about 3 minutes before I decided to stop. I figure it would have taken about 15 minutes to chop all the way through and would have required a good amount of energy on my part. I chopped through with the camp knife in about 10 minutes, and probably would have shaved a couple of minutes off the time if not for the knots. It took about 5 minutes to chop through with the bowie. I'd say the average depth of each cut was about 1/2" for the bowie and a little bit less for the camp knife. The pronghorn averaged about 1/4".
I'd just like to add that my goal was to chop through the wood not to put stress on my knives. Even when I made the hole it was more by chopping across the grain and then prying the pieces out. My thoughts on doing the tests was to show how they would perform under normal use, if you happen to be a person that would use your Fowler knives, I know of a few people who buy them strictly for display. Whatever the intended use, you wouldn't put any unnecessary stress on it.
I don't plan on running any abrasive or possibly destructive tests. Any tests that will scratch up my blades or that are meant to determine how much force is required to chip the edge are not being considered at this time. I do appreciate the comments I've recieved on suitable tests though.
-Jose
Thanks for the pointers. I didn't count the amount of swings but it took approximately 5 minutes to stab through the 2x6 and I tried to chop through it for about 3 minutes before I decided to stop. I figure it would have taken about 15 minutes to chop all the way through and would have required a good amount of energy on my part. I chopped through with the camp knife in about 10 minutes, and probably would have shaved a couple of minutes off the time if not for the knots. It took about 5 minutes to chop through with the bowie. I'd say the average depth of each cut was about 1/2" for the bowie and a little bit less for the camp knife. The pronghorn averaged about 1/4".
I'd just like to add that my goal was to chop through the wood not to put stress on my knives. Even when I made the hole it was more by chopping across the grain and then prying the pieces out. My thoughts on doing the tests was to show how they would perform under normal use, if you happen to be a person that would use your Fowler knives, I know of a few people who buy them strictly for display. Whatever the intended use, you wouldn't put any unnecessary stress on it.
I don't plan on running any abrasive or possibly destructive tests. Any tests that will scratch up my blades or that are meant to determine how much force is required to chip the edge are not being considered at this time. I do appreciate the comments I've recieved on suitable tests though.
-Jose
Cliff Stamp
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The hole cutting information is appreciated, that is very different that how it is often done with is a stab and a pry, however as long as it is clear about what is done, any work is of use.
-Cliff
-Cliff
Cliff Stamp
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I dropped Ed an email about the intended use of Pronghorn, sometime ago, which possibly due to the wonders of email was never answered.
Having finished a lot of work on edge retention and cutting ability, the following areas are yet to be explored so comments on intented use would be of benefit :
1) heavy tip work, prying and such (usually limited to woods)
2) hard edge contacts from light to heavy bone, and light to heavy metals
3) high dynamic impacts such as baton work in splitting knotty wood
4) hard prying in general, how far will this blade bend before it takes a set
And in general (which can be addressed by users) work which would illustrate the advantage of the Pronghorn over other knives such as the Deerhunter from A. G. Russel, or the Howling Rat from Swamp Rat Knifeworks.
-Cliff
Having finished a lot of work on edge retention and cutting ability, the following areas are yet to be explored so comments on intented use would be of benefit :
1) heavy tip work, prying and such (usually limited to woods)
2) hard edge contacts from light to heavy bone, and light to heavy metals
3) high dynamic impacts such as baton work in splitting knotty wood
4) hard prying in general, how far will this blade bend before it takes a set
And in general (which can be addressed by users) work which would illustrate the advantage of the Pronghorn over other knives such as the Deerhunter from A. G. Russel, or the Howling Rat from Swamp Rat Knifeworks.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2001
- Messages
- 2,869
Rob:
Years ago I found a treatment to greatly improve the cutting performance of some Damascus by alloying it with some brazing rod with some silver in it as I remember. I was immediately impressed and waited several months until Wayne Goddard could confirm my results. When he came to my shop I handed him the blade and some rope. He had heard all about it in priviate conversations.
He cut with the blade and it quit after three cuts, I figured OK, just needs sharpening, we both sharpened and cut with it, a blade that had done over 80 cuts (highly superior for Damascus) was now a dismal failure. I was extremely thankful that I did not make more blades and sell them immediately. This is why I don't report every new event until it has proven to hold up over time and temperature variations. A lesson learned.
The improvement at this time is over twice the toughness and cut of our last reported test blade that was wrote up in Blade Magazine and is now in my new book Knife Talk II
As soon as Rex has time to evaluate some blades in the lab and the results prove themselves by our being able to repeat them with every blade I remain excited but don't talk about it until we are absolutely positive that it is repeatable.
Sorry for keeping you in the dark, I should not have mentioned it. Thanks for the interest!
Years ago I found a treatment to greatly improve the cutting performance of some Damascus by alloying it with some brazing rod with some silver in it as I remember. I was immediately impressed and waited several months until Wayne Goddard could confirm my results. When he came to my shop I handed him the blade and some rope. He had heard all about it in priviate conversations.
He cut with the blade and it quit after three cuts, I figured OK, just needs sharpening, we both sharpened and cut with it, a blade that had done over 80 cuts (highly superior for Damascus) was now a dismal failure. I was extremely thankful that I did not make more blades and sell them immediately. This is why I don't report every new event until it has proven to hold up over time and temperature variations. A lesson learned.
The improvement at this time is over twice the toughness and cut of our last reported test blade that was wrote up in Blade Magazine and is now in my new book Knife Talk II
As soon as Rex has time to evaluate some blades in the lab and the results prove themselves by our being able to repeat them with every blade I remain excited but don't talk about it until we are absolutely positive that it is repeatable.
Sorry for keeping you in the dark, I should not have mentioned it. Thanks for the interest!
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