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Question for Cliff Stamp re: Ed Fowler's knives...
- Thread starter Mongo
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Jerry: I am highly honored by your comments and and sincerely thank you for sharing them. I did not know that one of my ladies made her way to your hands, I am glad that she did well for you. You make an excellent knife yourself and have provided our industry with an honest knife. I am honored to call you friend.
Cliff Stamp
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The Pronghorn arrived last Friday, the customs delay was quite surreal.
The knife is far thicker than I expected, just under 1/4", without an extensive taper. The Howling Rat for example is much thinner distally. The initial sharpness is below average, but it was made awhile ago, and inspected by customs, so while unused the edge may have suffered degredation from accidental contacts. The handle is unique, it has a convex contour on one side and hollow on the other, like a spoon. I assume this is a custom design, as I heard no reference to this being the standard grip. Any top down shots available from other knives?
The initial edge was tested for sharpness and shallow cutting ability, plus some work was done with the knife in the kitchen and on soft woods both whittling and light chopping with a partial snap grip. The first round of hemp cutting was performed last nigh, it will be repeated twice more on two other rolls of hemp and those results should be done by friday, and by monday hopefully the results from another blade in 52100 will also be completed. Cardboard is also being gathered for other edge retention work, and other materials as well. The floor is still open for suggestions on what should be done.
Jose :
[in the event ...]
They don't seem to, the reviews are updated constantly to bring in new information. The reviews also contain many statements like "At first it apeared that XXX, but with extended use it was determined that ZZZ."
Gator97 :
Yes, it is one aspect, often *requested* by the maker/manufacturers, and not even done on all knives. Now if I did it with every knife, and more importantly judged any knife as bad becuase it failed such a test the arguement would have merit. But there is little logic in the above detractions, just emotion.
In general I don't give knives grades, though it is the most requested added feature. Difference people want different performance so I just describe what happens and the reader can make up their own mind about the suitability of the knife.
Some knives may get some comments along these lines, mainly if the design was incoherent. For example if you made a heavy chopper out of a very brittle steel. It would be hard to find a use for that blade at all, so this would likely be noted regading scope of work.
At times though through feedback opinions can change on that, if someone sent me an email or made a post explaining where such a knife excelled the review would be updated to reflect the focus of the knife.
Jose :
The majority of blades in the review I have bought, though yes, makers and users do ask me to look at blades from time to time. Several people contacted me during this thread as they were interested in having one of their blades compared to the Pronghorn.
In regards to cryo, based on what I have read, and what I have seen, I would bet on a 52100 stock removal blade with a quality heat treatment matching the performance of a forged blade, or possibly exceeding it, in several respects. I would however be prepared for possible surprises there.
I have contacted makers about experiments, twice in the past I offered to buy such steel from Burke for such a contrast with no responce to pricing issues. The offer is still open. Phil Wilson was willing to grind test blades and do the stock removal heat treatment - full cryo.
More importantly though, I made the point that there are stock removal steels which will easily exceed forged 52100 in any respect. As far as I know, only Ed is actually claiming otherwise. I cited several specific steels in the above, S7, 440C, CPM-10V etc. .
No other maker promotes such extensive abilities about their steel with no darwbacks. Even Busse, who *strongly* promotes INFI, is quick to agree that there are lots of steels which exceed it in various aspects without Busse doing the heat treatment.
But direct questions are being ignored, does Ed (or his users) actually claim Ed's 60 HRC 52100 has better wear resitance or hardness than CPM-10V at 64/65 HRC, better corrosion resistance than AISI 420HC, better impact toughness than S7 etc. .
As well, it is very different to say I have found XXX works the best for me, as opposed to my XXX is better than anyone else, and every other method is directly inferior to such an extent that you can't even compare them at all, my standard is so much higher.
Has Ed actually tested stock removal 52100 from makers like Phil Wilson, an custom knifemaker who is also an engineer, and uses modern ovens, very tight controls on times and temperatures and deep cryogenics using liquid nitrogen.
Has he in fact used any of the 52100 blades that I referenced I have, how then can he just assume that his are automatically so much better I can not even possibly suggest performance comparisons could be drawn.
A few posts quoted just becuase some things should be preserved :
Angie Fowler :
lifter4Him :
and my favorite, the irony is staggering :
Phil :
-Cliff
The knife is far thicker than I expected, just under 1/4", without an extensive taper. The Howling Rat for example is much thinner distally. The initial sharpness is below average, but it was made awhile ago, and inspected by customs, so while unused the edge may have suffered degredation from accidental contacts. The handle is unique, it has a convex contour on one side and hollow on the other, like a spoon. I assume this is a custom design, as I heard no reference to this being the standard grip. Any top down shots available from other knives?
The initial edge was tested for sharpness and shallow cutting ability, plus some work was done with the knife in the kitchen and on soft woods both whittling and light chopping with a partial snap grip. The first round of hemp cutting was performed last nigh, it will be repeated twice more on two other rolls of hemp and those results should be done by friday, and by monday hopefully the results from another blade in 52100 will also be completed. Cardboard is also being gathered for other edge retention work, and other materials as well. The floor is still open for suggestions on what should be done.
Jose :
[in the event ...]
They don't seem to, the reviews are updated constantly to bring in new information. The reviews also contain many statements like "At first it apeared that XXX, but with extended use it was determined that ZZZ."
Gator97 :
Yes, it is one aspect, often *requested* by the maker/manufacturers, and not even done on all knives. Now if I did it with every knife, and more importantly judged any knife as bad becuase it failed such a test the arguement would have merit. But there is little logic in the above detractions, just emotion.
In general I don't give knives grades, though it is the most requested added feature. Difference people want different performance so I just describe what happens and the reader can make up their own mind about the suitability of the knife.
Some knives may get some comments along these lines, mainly if the design was incoherent. For example if you made a heavy chopper out of a very brittle steel. It would be hard to find a use for that blade at all, so this would likely be noted regading scope of work.
At times though through feedback opinions can change on that, if someone sent me an email or made a post explaining where such a knife excelled the review would be updated to reflect the focus of the knife.
Jose :
The majority of blades in the review I have bought, though yes, makers and users do ask me to look at blades from time to time. Several people contacted me during this thread as they were interested in having one of their blades compared to the Pronghorn.
In regards to cryo, based on what I have read, and what I have seen, I would bet on a 52100 stock removal blade with a quality heat treatment matching the performance of a forged blade, or possibly exceeding it, in several respects. I would however be prepared for possible surprises there.
I have contacted makers about experiments, twice in the past I offered to buy such steel from Burke for such a contrast with no responce to pricing issues. The offer is still open. Phil Wilson was willing to grind test blades and do the stock removal heat treatment - full cryo.
More importantly though, I made the point that there are stock removal steels which will easily exceed forged 52100 in any respect. As far as I know, only Ed is actually claiming otherwise. I cited several specific steels in the above, S7, 440C, CPM-10V etc. .
No other maker promotes such extensive abilities about their steel with no darwbacks. Even Busse, who *strongly* promotes INFI, is quick to agree that there are lots of steels which exceed it in various aspects without Busse doing the heat treatment.
But direct questions are being ignored, does Ed (or his users) actually claim Ed's 60 HRC 52100 has better wear resitance or hardness than CPM-10V at 64/65 HRC, better corrosion resistance than AISI 420HC, better impact toughness than S7 etc. .
As well, it is very different to say I have found XXX works the best for me, as opposed to my XXX is better than anyone else, and every other method is directly inferior to such an extent that you can't even compare them at all, my standard is so much higher.
Has Ed actually tested stock removal 52100 from makers like Phil Wilson, an custom knifemaker who is also an engineer, and uses modern ovens, very tight controls on times and temperatures and deep cryogenics using liquid nitrogen.
Has he in fact used any of the 52100 blades that I referenced I have, how then can he just assume that his are automatically so much better I can not even possibly suggest performance comparisons could be drawn.
A few posts quoted just becuase some things should be preserved :
Angie Fowler :
lifter4Him :
and my favorite, the irony is staggering :
Phil :
-Cliff
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2000
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- 2,785
I hope Cliff will do a honest review of the knife. As far as I'm concerned, I will make my mind about Mr. Fowler knives based on my own experience after I get to use one of them. I own and use a forged 52100 7" camp knife from Achim Wirtz, a german bladesmith that is very passionate about metalurgy. The knife cuts like crazy and keeps the edge forever. I remember Achim told me once that the proper forging and heat treating is what brings out the best in this steel. He also said Ed Fowler is one of the bladesmiths that can get all this steel can give. It is good enough for me.
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2001
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Cliff,
Ed's older blades are a bit thicker than the ones he's currently making. As was discussed in your "edge geometry" thread, the geometry has evolved along with processes they've developed for the steel.
The handles can also vary depending on the intended grip or technique to be used. Some have more of an ambidexterous feel to them than others, but they usually tend to have a palm swell on one side and a hollow on the other for your fingers. I've handled some that also incorporate a "heel" on the back of the handle for your palm so you can get better leverage when stabbing. Here are a few photos that, while not ideal, do help to illustrate the differences.
You mentioned that initial sharpness should be factored into a knife review, in the "Knife World camp knife review" thread, on this point I disagree. I don't see how it's useful other than to determine the skill of the last person to sharpen it. I'm sure you know how to properly sharpen a convex edge, but since I have seen a few cases where the edge was damaged by improper sharpening, some photos of the edge would be appreciated, in order to determine whether the original contours are still intact.
I don't have any experience reviewing knives, so I don't have much input as far as tests are concerned. The most appropriate test I can think of would be to clean game. I know Ed has used his blades in butchering or packing plants, although I don't know if this option would be available to you. The main disagreement I had with your initial post, based on my own experience, was the ease with which you claimed his knives could be bent. I don't feel that Gabe's knife should be damaged in any way but I'd like your impressions of the amount of force needed before there was any flex at all in the blade.
I think that some of the emotion in this thread stems from the belief that there are people out there who would target a maker with an established reputation in order to get some publicity or to try elevate their product or standing. That you had offers for head to head comparisons does not surprise me.
In regards to the cryo treated stock removal theory, it's beyond my scope so I'll have to bow out of that discussion. I do know that there are sources for 52100 other than Bill Burke, so it's availability should not be a factor in your tests. I can't say I disagree with your comments on the existence of steels that can out perform 52100 in *any* respect, but unless you can name a steel that will out perform it in *every* respect then what merit do your comments have? In my mind it's more the goals and knowledge on the part of the maker that will make the difference.
The only claims I make are that Ed's knives are the best *I* have used and I would trust my life to them. There are other makers out there who make a quality high performance knife as well, but none who's designs I so thoroughly agree with.
-Jose
Ed's older blades are a bit thicker than the ones he's currently making. As was discussed in your "edge geometry" thread, the geometry has evolved along with processes they've developed for the steel.
The handles can also vary depending on the intended grip or technique to be used. Some have more of an ambidexterous feel to them than others, but they usually tend to have a palm swell on one side and a hollow on the other for your fingers. I've handled some that also incorporate a "heel" on the back of the handle for your palm so you can get better leverage when stabbing. Here are a few photos that, while not ideal, do help to illustrate the differences.
You mentioned that initial sharpness should be factored into a knife review, in the "Knife World camp knife review" thread, on this point I disagree. I don't see how it's useful other than to determine the skill of the last person to sharpen it. I'm sure you know how to properly sharpen a convex edge, but since I have seen a few cases where the edge was damaged by improper sharpening, some photos of the edge would be appreciated, in order to determine whether the original contours are still intact.
I don't have any experience reviewing knives, so I don't have much input as far as tests are concerned. The most appropriate test I can think of would be to clean game. I know Ed has used his blades in butchering or packing plants, although I don't know if this option would be available to you. The main disagreement I had with your initial post, based on my own experience, was the ease with which you claimed his knives could be bent. I don't feel that Gabe's knife should be damaged in any way but I'd like your impressions of the amount of force needed before there was any flex at all in the blade.
I think that some of the emotion in this thread stems from the belief that there are people out there who would target a maker with an established reputation in order to get some publicity or to try elevate their product or standing. That you had offers for head to head comparisons does not surprise me.
In regards to the cryo treated stock removal theory, it's beyond my scope so I'll have to bow out of that discussion. I do know that there are sources for 52100 other than Bill Burke, so it's availability should not be a factor in your tests. I can't say I disagree with your comments on the existence of steels that can out perform 52100 in *any* respect, but unless you can name a steel that will out perform it in *every* respect then what merit do your comments have? In my mind it's more the goals and knowledge on the part of the maker that will make the difference.
The only claims I make are that Ed's knives are the best *I* have used and I would trust my life to them. There are other makers out there who make a quality high performance knife as well, but none who's designs I so thoroughly agree with.
-Jose
I also have a knife on order from Mr. Fowler, going on 3 years now. Hopefully, my wait will be no more than 1 - 4 years from now, and no matter what happens with this test, I will be VERY eagerly awaiting my first Pronghorn! Ed has proven himself not only to be a world class bladesmith, but someone eager to share his knowledge with others. That, in my opinion, is one of the fundamental tests of a Master. Someone who is far beyond knowledge "hoarding", and wants to share and advance both the science and the art.
Thanks Mr. Fowler, there are many who appreciate your dedication and knowledge!
Thanks Mr. Fowler, there are many who appreciate your dedication and knowledge!
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Jose. Flava and Swede79: Thank you for the kind thoughs.
Cliff: I do not publically compare my blades to those of other makers. Nothing is to be gained by stepping on others toes. I
I have experimented extensively and shared the lessons learned with all who wished to receive them. I have reported what I have learned with our steel in the hope of encouraing others to join in the search for better knives. The results have been rewarding for many share with me in return.
It is pretty easy to make a blade that will out cut another blade, as it is equally simple to make exceptionally tough or strong blades. To achieve functional balance in relation to what for is another matter that requires common sense along with emperical knowledge.
Cliff: I do not publically compare my blades to those of other makers. Nothing is to be gained by stepping on others toes. I
I have experimented extensively and shared the lessons learned with all who wished to receive them. I have reported what I have learned with our steel in the hope of encouraing others to join in the search for better knives. The results have been rewarding for many share with me in return.
It is pretty easy to make a blade that will out cut another blade, as it is equally simple to make exceptionally tough or strong blades. To achieve functional balance in relation to what for is another matter that requires common sense along with emperical knowledge.
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
My Pronghorn fits my hand like a glove. I have never had a knife that was as comfortable to hold. It has never been put to a real test, so I can't say how it would feel after half an hour of steady use, but I can't imagine it ever becoming uncomfortable.
Mine came very, very sharp. That was certainly not a problem. It also has quite a pronounced distal taper and is a fair bit less than 1/4" thick.
I have not held one of Ed's older knives, but from the description given by Cliff, I would say that there have been quite a few changes.
Mine came very, very sharp. That was certainly not a problem. It also has quite a pronounced distal taper and is a fair bit less than 1/4" thick.
I have not held one of Ed's older knives, but from the description given by Cliff, I would say that there have been quite a few changes.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- 17,562
Jose :
First off some people don't sharpen their knives but send them back to the maker periodically. Second, poor intial sharpness is usually accompanied by problems with the edge formation such as hollows and uneven angles. Issues such as these can increase the initial sharpening time for the user by a factor of a hundred to one. There of course is also the fit and finish issue.
This was based on 1/8" stock with dual tapers and an unhardened spine, which will make for a relatively weak knife, specifially meaning it could be bent by hand without requiring body weight.
I have done so with other knives, lots of them so I know how they respond to the loads. I have done it on knives with and without tapers, with soft and spring spines and with full hardening.
This Pronghorn is just under a 1/4" with little taper, it isn't significantly thinner than a large bowie so it obviously going to be fairly stiff through the main blade body even without a through hardening.
The purpose was to examine the forged and triple quench influence specifically as promoted by Fowler and Burke. I already have used forged 52100 blades by other makers, however they don't make the same extent of claims.
[52100]
How about the fact that not everyone agrees with your idea of scope of work.
My initial point was that if you restrict the use to cutting soft materials, which Ed has done clearly in his video, and in this thread to the extent of degrading people who do otherwise, there are better steels for edge retention.
However as for a directly better steel, CPM-3V has better toughness and wear resistance, and doesn't even require a differential temper to have high impact toughness or flexiblity so would be far stronger. Neither steel resists corrosion very well.
Of course if you include the desire to bend to 180 degrees, CPM-3V would not be a good choice as ease of differnetial hardening would be an issue. As noted clearly, I never said that 52100 was a bad choice, Ed makes crappy knives, the steel doesn't suit the way he makes knives etc. .
What I said was that I would prefer a knife to have a difference scope of work, I don't see any value in a knife being able to bent to 180 degrees (at the cost of strength) and specifically I would want it to be less flexible but stronger and on a knife restricted to cutting soft materials I would choose a much harder steel with a higher wear resistance
Ed :
You have done so in this thread. When I came under fire for daring to comment on your knives without using them, I pointed out that I had used knives from other makers out of 52100, both forged and stock removal, you then strongly attacked this arguement on the basis that the performance of your knives could not be so inferred as any extrapolation would be very inaccurate. This makes a very powerful statement about your opinion of the abilities of those makers which was mirrored by the posters who supported that stance.
-Cliff
First off some people don't sharpen their knives but send them back to the maker periodically. Second, poor intial sharpness is usually accompanied by problems with the edge formation such as hollows and uneven angles. Issues such as these can increase the initial sharpening time for the user by a factor of a hundred to one. There of course is also the fit and finish issue.
This was based on 1/8" stock with dual tapers and an unhardened spine, which will make for a relatively weak knife, specifially meaning it could be bent by hand without requiring body weight.
I have done so with other knives, lots of them so I know how they respond to the loads. I have done it on knives with and without tapers, with soft and spring spines and with full hardening.
This Pronghorn is just under a 1/4" with little taper, it isn't significantly thinner than a large bowie so it obviously going to be fairly stiff through the main blade body even without a through hardening.
The purpose was to examine the forged and triple quench influence specifically as promoted by Fowler and Burke. I already have used forged 52100 blades by other makers, however they don't make the same extent of claims.
[52100]
How about the fact that not everyone agrees with your idea of scope of work.
My initial point was that if you restrict the use to cutting soft materials, which Ed has done clearly in his video, and in this thread to the extent of degrading people who do otherwise, there are better steels for edge retention.
However as for a directly better steel, CPM-3V has better toughness and wear resistance, and doesn't even require a differential temper to have high impact toughness or flexiblity so would be far stronger. Neither steel resists corrosion very well.
Of course if you include the desire to bend to 180 degrees, CPM-3V would not be a good choice as ease of differnetial hardening would be an issue. As noted clearly, I never said that 52100 was a bad choice, Ed makes crappy knives, the steel doesn't suit the way he makes knives etc. .
What I said was that I would prefer a knife to have a difference scope of work, I don't see any value in a knife being able to bent to 180 degrees (at the cost of strength) and specifically I would want it to be less flexible but stronger and on a knife restricted to cutting soft materials I would choose a much harder steel with a higher wear resistance
Ed :
You have done so in this thread. When I came under fire for daring to comment on your knives without using them, I pointed out that I had used knives from other makers out of 52100, both forged and stock removal, you then strongly attacked this arguement on the basis that the performance of your knives could not be so inferred as any extrapolation would be very inaccurate. This makes a very powerful statement about your opinion of the abilities of those makers which was mirrored by the posters who supported that stance.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,152
Cliff,
Is it stiff enough to satisfy your needs when being used to pry?
Ed might have made the statement that his "pronghorn" knives were not designed for cutting hard materials, that does not mean that they are not suitable for such tasks. It would make sense for you to be clear so as to help reduce warranty claims from customers who might not have a clear understanding that they should not be trying to chop through cinder blocks. Certainly if there are people out there who can't sharpen their own knives, then there are probably a few who would buy a "high performance" blade and expect to be able to use it in an unreasonable manner. Extreme abuse could very well damage the knife, but when push comes to shove, in an emergency your blade would hold up under extreme stress without failing.
Aside from the fact that the video you are making reference to is probably even older than the knife you are currently testing, Ed will also ask you what your intended use of the knife will be, along with other questions to help tailor the knife specifically to you, and can alter his design accordingly.
That the knife can bend to 180 degrees is useful in determining the quality of the steel, but is really beside the point. Fully hardening the blade would make it stiffer, but when it's going to take a "cheater pipe" in order to flex the blade to begin with, how much stiffer does the blade need to be to satisfy your performance needs?
We seem to be going over this point again and again, yes, you can choose a steel that's harder and has more wear resistance but at significant cost to toughness. Ed's knives are designed with a specific function in mind, but they are not so specialized as to make them unsuitable for general, even abusive, use. I've seen examples that have been beat with rocks and called upon to sever cables, and while they did suffer some damage, were still fully functional.
The following is meant as a personal observation, not an attack. Your comments directed at Ed in your last couple of posts just reinforce my perceptions that you consider Ed to either be lying or making claims based on ignorance. That your knowledge is superior goes without question. Your "edge geometry" thread for example, while interesting, does not offer any revolutionary ideas. You made a comment that choosing a suitable knife for your intended task would assume either the maker or client knew what what features would make it so. Do you find it hard to believe that there are plenty of makers and collectors out there who are as experienced and knowledgeable as you are, if not more so?
Steels may be classified under the same name but that does not mean that they have the exact composition, and that they'll react the same way to forging/heat treating methods, so direct comparisons may not be always be suitable. Based on my conversations with Ed that is how I've interpreted his comments, not that his blades are so far superior to everyone elses that direct comparisons can not be made.
-Jose
Is it stiff enough to satisfy your needs when being used to pry?
Ed might have made the statement that his "pronghorn" knives were not designed for cutting hard materials, that does not mean that they are not suitable for such tasks. It would make sense for you to be clear so as to help reduce warranty claims from customers who might not have a clear understanding that they should not be trying to chop through cinder blocks. Certainly if there are people out there who can't sharpen their own knives, then there are probably a few who would buy a "high performance" blade and expect to be able to use it in an unreasonable manner. Extreme abuse could very well damage the knife, but when push comes to shove, in an emergency your blade would hold up under extreme stress without failing.
Aside from the fact that the video you are making reference to is probably even older than the knife you are currently testing, Ed will also ask you what your intended use of the knife will be, along with other questions to help tailor the knife specifically to you, and can alter his design accordingly.
That the knife can bend to 180 degrees is useful in determining the quality of the steel, but is really beside the point. Fully hardening the blade would make it stiffer, but when it's going to take a "cheater pipe" in order to flex the blade to begin with, how much stiffer does the blade need to be to satisfy your performance needs?
We seem to be going over this point again and again, yes, you can choose a steel that's harder and has more wear resistance but at significant cost to toughness. Ed's knives are designed with a specific function in mind, but they are not so specialized as to make them unsuitable for general, even abusive, use. I've seen examples that have been beat with rocks and called upon to sever cables, and while they did suffer some damage, were still fully functional.
The following is meant as a personal observation, not an attack. Your comments directed at Ed in your last couple of posts just reinforce my perceptions that you consider Ed to either be lying or making claims based on ignorance. That your knowledge is superior goes without question. Your "edge geometry" thread for example, while interesting, does not offer any revolutionary ideas. You made a comment that choosing a suitable knife for your intended task would assume either the maker or client knew what what features would make it so. Do you find it hard to believe that there are plenty of makers and collectors out there who are as experienced and knowledgeable as you are, if not more so?
Steels may be classified under the same name but that does not mean that they have the exact composition, and that they'll react the same way to forging/heat treating methods, so direct comparisons may not be always be suitable. Based on my conversations with Ed that is how I've interpreted his comments, not that his blades are so far superior to everyone elses that direct comparisons can not be made.
-Jose
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2002
- Messages
- 2,125
Cliff,
Someone told me that you are a student...? Is that true? I think Ed Fowler has been making knives for about forty years. I'd be interested to know what you were doing forty years ago, as some point of reference. (As for myself, I was pooping in my diaper in the 1960s) Don't you think he deserves respect? He's not a stupid or foolish man. He's a national treasure and a genius. There aren't any other Ed Fowler's around. There are always handfuls of critics everywhere. Even if the knife you've got doesn't beat everything else you've seen, I still would rather have it because of the man who made it. That's all.
David
Someone told me that you are a student...? Is that true? I think Ed Fowler has been making knives for about forty years. I'd be interested to know what you were doing forty years ago, as some point of reference. (As for myself, I was pooping in my diaper in the 1960s) Don't you think he deserves respect? He's not a stupid or foolish man. He's a national treasure and a genius. There aren't any other Ed Fowler's around. There are always handfuls of critics everywhere. Even if the knife you've got doesn't beat everything else you've seen, I still would rather have it because of the man who made it. That's all.
David
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2000
- Messages
- 3,794
Cliff,
Someone told me that you are a student...? Is that true?
Doh. Out of curiosity, what does that have to do with this thread and knife testing? AFAIK, Cliff is legal age to handle knives
Don't you think he deserves respect?
Disagreeing with a maker or criticism is not disrespect.
In a thread on microserrations, Cliff stated that he disbelieved all knifemaker performance claims. He called David Boye a charlatan for claiming that his 440C dendritic outperforms 440C stock removal. Cliff states microserrations are BS, although Boye has the micrographs to prove their existence. So, by nature, Cliff has stated he won't believe anything from a maker.
Arguing with Cliff is like wrestling with a greased hog, sooner or later you realize the hog is enjoying it and you'll never win.
Arguing with Cliff is like wrestling with a greased hog, sooner or later you realize the hog is enjoying it and you'll never win.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2001
- Messages
- 2,869
Cliff: Your ability to twist, turn and pit one knife maker against another is a wonder to behold.
Tell you a story: Years ago I had two magnifcant herd bulls, they and a couple two year olds covered 175 cows in 60 days. Their heifer calves bred on time as two year olds, were good mothers and the steers topped the sale. In short these bulls were high achievers. For a few months every year they were corraled before breeding time. They got along well, all was peacefull. Weighing over 1,700 pounds each they were powerhouses, but peacefull.
A neighbors wife picked up a little yappy dog from the pound. The little yappy dog never produced anything as far as anyone knew. Soon this little yappy dog found his way over a mile to the corral where the bulls were penned up.
The little yappy dog would harrass the herd bulls, nipping at their noses until they got up, he would then continue to yap and circle them until the bulls would start fighting each other, this usually resulted in my having to replace RR tie posts and 3 X 12 planks. One heck of a mess. All thanks to one yappy dog.
Like the greased pig, the little yappy dog stood back and watched until he got caught by one of the younger bulls and then all was quiet again.
One thing I have to thank you for, Jerry Busse and I have become friends and just may have some suprises coming up in the future.
Tell you a story: Years ago I had two magnifcant herd bulls, they and a couple two year olds covered 175 cows in 60 days. Their heifer calves bred on time as two year olds, were good mothers and the steers topped the sale. In short these bulls were high achievers. For a few months every year they were corraled before breeding time. They got along well, all was peacefull. Weighing over 1,700 pounds each they were powerhouses, but peacefull.
A neighbors wife picked up a little yappy dog from the pound. The little yappy dog never produced anything as far as anyone knew. Soon this little yappy dog found his way over a mile to the corral where the bulls were penned up.
The little yappy dog would harrass the herd bulls, nipping at their noses until they got up, he would then continue to yap and circle them until the bulls would start fighting each other, this usually resulted in my having to replace RR tie posts and 3 X 12 planks. One heck of a mess. All thanks to one yappy dog.
Like the greased pig, the little yappy dog stood back and watched until he got caught by one of the younger bulls and then all was quiet again.
One thing I have to thank you for, Jerry Busse and I have become friends and just may have some suprises coming up in the future.
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2002
- Messages
- 2,125
Buzzbait,
I've really liked reading your posts on some the knives you've used. I'd like to hear about what you think about all this...
Brownshoe,
Funny comparison! (probably true)
Cliff,
I'd still like to know...What are your credentials? (Not a question for Gator, or anyone else, just Cliff) Wouldn't it be better for you to just answer that question first?
Gator,
I was just pointing out that there should be inherent respect for someone like Ed Fowler (40 yrs.+ experience) from all aspiring knife makers and people who like to tear them up and disect them. He has a reputation that is well-earned and deserves to be treated fairly. Reading Cliff say Ed Fowler denegrates every other maker who doesn't use his methods seems to be a real stretch of the imagination. I think it's a misrepresentation. Maybe I'll have to read it all again.
David
I've really liked reading your posts on some the knives you've used. I'd like to hear about what you think about all this...
Brownshoe,
Funny comparison! (probably true)
Cliff,
I'd still like to know...What are your credentials? (Not a question for Gator, or anyone else, just Cliff) Wouldn't it be better for you to just answer that question first?
Gator,
I was just pointing out that there should be inherent respect for someone like Ed Fowler (40 yrs.+ experience) from all aspiring knife makers and people who like to tear them up and disect them. He has a reputation that is well-earned and deserves to be treated fairly. Reading Cliff say Ed Fowler denegrates every other maker who doesn't use his methods seems to be a real stretch of the imagination. I think it's a misrepresentation. Maybe I'll have to read it all again.
David
- Joined
- May 26, 2000
- Messages
- 1,922
The irony... I'll preserve it.Originally posted by Ed Fowler
Dear Cliff:
Preserve this-----Cliff Stamp=yappy dog!!!!
LOL
angie fowler
Interesting and kind of a shame... the normally honorable Ed Fowler has now resorted to a folksey story to offer up a thinly veiled personal insult via analogy.
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