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Question for Cliff Stamp re: Ed Fowler's knives...
- Thread starter Mongo
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Edited out my own idiocy. Darn it, I posted on a Cliff thread after I promised not to. That was supposed to be part of my self-improvement plan.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89720&highlight=sean+perkins
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89720&highlight=sean+perkins
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"Please don't use the excuse that it is to far( or that you are to busy, you are still in school ,right)..."
Mr Shipman,
I have felt little inclination to contribute to this acrimonius thread so far, and like others are somewhat surprised at what has appeared here.
But the message quoted above is one of the most ignorant, condescending items to appear in this thread.
To presume that being in school automatically provides one with lots of free time is preposterous. While Cliff's copious writings here may suggest that he has lots of free time (perhaps available only in small bits), that is no reason to suggest that he can automatically take a few days off because he's "in school".
I presume to know nothing of Cliff's arrangement, but for many advanced study in the physical sciences is quite possibly the time that they work the hardest in their lives. The usual arrangement in the US is that after one or two semesters the student works in a laboratory under the guidance of a professor performing research in an area of the professor's expertise. The recommendation of this professor and a few others will determine the students subsequent career.
Many of these professors are difficult to impress. Some are egomaniacal, single-minded, driven workaholics who expect their students to be the same. The usual arrangement is that the student is waived tuition and paid a small stipend for living expenses. So he is working for the professor in the laboratory as a researcher at the same time he is getting an advanced degree. The professor sets the rules.
Here are some examples of the demands upon students or postdocs that I or people that I have known experienced:
In lab minimum of 6 days/wk 10 hrs/day.
Two weeks off per year-- that means 14 days off per year.
I am aware of recommendations that note the student is a "hard-worker, but doesn't put in 90-100 hrs/week"
Professor appears or calls often at very late or early hours to to take role call.
Professor is around 16 hours a day, and can't understand why students who unlike him, buy and prepare their own food, wash their own clothes and don't have an office to nap in, can't be around 16 hrs a day either.
Professor appears in lab on Chrismas day to distribute trinkets to students working at that time.
Students who are supported by a fellowship that they won themselves (which means that the professor doesn't have to pay them out of his research grant) find that they are expected to give any amount over whatever the professor's usual stipend is to the professor who then pools such funds so he can pay the stipend of an additional student to work in his lab.
The student is required by the professor to teach a classes much more often than departmental requirements because part of the stipend is then paid by the university, instead of out of the professors research grant.
The professor requires students of do library research for publications such as books and reviews that the students get no credit for.
Yes there are many professors who are not spell out such expectations. Sometimes the students work this hard on thier own. Some professors have lives outside of their research and expect their students to also.
I know nothing of Cliff's advisor(s), and unless you do, your comment is quite presumptious and insulting in general to graduate students and postdocs.
Mr Shipman,
I have felt little inclination to contribute to this acrimonius thread so far, and like others are somewhat surprised at what has appeared here.
But the message quoted above is one of the most ignorant, condescending items to appear in this thread.
To presume that being in school automatically provides one with lots of free time is preposterous. While Cliff's copious writings here may suggest that he has lots of free time (perhaps available only in small bits), that is no reason to suggest that he can automatically take a few days off because he's "in school".
I presume to know nothing of Cliff's arrangement, but for many advanced study in the physical sciences is quite possibly the time that they work the hardest in their lives. The usual arrangement in the US is that after one or two semesters the student works in a laboratory under the guidance of a professor performing research in an area of the professor's expertise. The recommendation of this professor and a few others will determine the students subsequent career.
Many of these professors are difficult to impress. Some are egomaniacal, single-minded, driven workaholics who expect their students to be the same. The usual arrangement is that the student is waived tuition and paid a small stipend for living expenses. So he is working for the professor in the laboratory as a researcher at the same time he is getting an advanced degree. The professor sets the rules.
Here are some examples of the demands upon students or postdocs that I or people that I have known experienced:
In lab minimum of 6 days/wk 10 hrs/day.
Two weeks off per year-- that means 14 days off per year.
I am aware of recommendations that note the student is a "hard-worker, but doesn't put in 90-100 hrs/week"
Professor appears or calls often at very late or early hours to to take role call.
Professor is around 16 hours a day, and can't understand why students who unlike him, buy and prepare their own food, wash their own clothes and don't have an office to nap in, can't be around 16 hrs a day either.
Professor appears in lab on Chrismas day to distribute trinkets to students working at that time.
Students who are supported by a fellowship that they won themselves (which means that the professor doesn't have to pay them out of his research grant) find that they are expected to give any amount over whatever the professor's usual stipend is to the professor who then pools such funds so he can pay the stipend of an additional student to work in his lab.
The student is required by the professor to teach a classes much more often than departmental requirements because part of the stipend is then paid by the university, instead of out of the professors research grant.
The professor requires students of do library research for publications such as books and reviews that the students get no credit for.
Yes there are many professors who are not spell out such expectations. Sometimes the students work this hard on thier own. Some professors have lives outside of their research and expect their students to also.
I know nothing of Cliff's advisor(s), and unless you do, your comment is quite presumptious and insulting in general to graduate students and postdocs.
I honestly doubt there would have been any kind of problem, or any questions about Cliff's reults if the Pronghorn had performed anywhere near what most expected.
Instead, now you can't judge the work by testing just one knife, or using just one tester. This, despite the makers acknowldegement that the results are not a surprise.
Test your knives, or don't, and be happy with them or sell them.
Thereby implying that Cliff, by posting his reults here and writing a review, has tried to condemn Ed Fowler's knives?
Is what he told you different than what he posted here, for everyone to read? Was he lying to everyone here, and gave you the real scoop?
For what it's worth, I believe what he posted here.
There is no need to, when he explained it right here, and said anyone who expected different results was ignorant. That's clear enough for me.
Why not just go see Cliff at his house. Bring your knives you want to test, and have at it.
Instead, you try to set him up with some silly invitation, and imply that if he does not show up, he has something to hide.
Whether Cliff is there or not, you can still test your knives, if that's what you want to do.
No, that's not true. It is Cliff's review, but Ed Fowler confirmed the results, right here in this thread.
Ironically enough, if you expected something different than the results Cliff got, you are indeed ignorant and do not understand knife performance, according to Ed Fowler.
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Cliff,
I don't agree with your statements here. You are the only person responsible for the condition Gabe's knife is in. Was there no indication at all that the knife was bending before it took it's final set? I'm not sure what the knife looks like after your tests but it is possible to bend the knife back into shape and still have a functional tool.
Anyway, When Gabe supplied his Pronghorn and Model 10 for testing he knew it was likely they would be damaged. If he was concerned about their value, limits should have been set on testing. Do I think that the makers should now be held responsible for warranty claims? Nope.
-Jose
I don't agree with your statements here. You are the only person responsible for the condition Gabe's knife is in. Was there no indication at all that the knife was bending before it took it's final set? I'm not sure what the knife looks like after your tests but it is possible to bend the knife back into shape and still have a functional tool.
Anyway, When Gabe supplied his Pronghorn and Model 10 for testing he knew it was likely they would be damaged. If he was concerned about their value, limits should have been set on testing. Do I think that the makers should now be held responsible for warranty claims? Nope.
-Jose
Now just why in the hell anyone would expect an old (five to ten year old) very expensive custom knife to stand up to factory made Opinels or Vic Rucksacks, or even a $90 Rat is beyond me. If I had very expensive custom cabinets made that long ago, how could I possibly expect them to stand up to what I can get right off the shelf at Home Depot today, what with all the advances in materials and technology that have occured since then? Get serious.
Since only insults and lunch have been hurled here, not sticks and stones, the only person egregiously wronged is Gabe. But some think not. I guess I just don't know cut. I also don't know why Cliff just doesn't rearrange his schedule at the drop of an anvil and hustle on down yonder in his spare time to a friendly knife-in with a guy who thinks he's responsible for his cows not fornicating, and with a bunch of fellows who want to show him exactly how well a Pronghorn can cut. Coward.
Since only insults and lunch have been hurled here, not sticks and stones, the only person egregiously wronged is Gabe. But some think not. I guess I just don't know cut. I also don't know why Cliff just doesn't rearrange his schedule at the drop of an anvil and hustle on down yonder in his spare time to a friendly knife-in with a guy who thinks he's responsible for his cows not fornicating, and with a bunch of fellows who want to show him exactly how well a Pronghorn can cut. Coward.
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- 398
Ignorant to the nature of a performance knife not hardly, I would venture a guess and wager that anyone who has spent a few minutes with me would tell you other wise . Degrees are like backsides and many have a faint odor about them. I did not say he would be found lacking if he did not come but why not cough up some cash and help him out on his international flight . Hell , I even offered the first 100.00 so let me go even further , hell I'll do the first 450.00. Surely some of you highly degreed folks could help him out if I can do that on a poor trashy truckers salary.
Cliff , I did not intend for you to seek him out but it was an open invite to meet in the middle as I don't think it is any further for you than me . As far as bending the knife and doing damage to it because Ed did not want to play with you. Damn , and the other guy called me lame and ignorant.
Why , now I know why the cows were not fornicating( that thar big word does mean : to screw, have sexual relations,do the humping dragon and so on don't it) , and all this time I thought it had to do with coming into heat first . It is called planing not at the drop of a hat . But alas , you call me a coward but you folks are running like a bunch of virgins at a porn star convention . Damn, it hurts when someone doesn't get mad and yell but tries to make it easy for Cliff to just come to a large gathering of Performance minded knife folks and join in.
Damn, help me out here folks or am I going to have to fork over the whole trip or could it be that when not alone the results may be different.I not so sure that all the lameness is on just my side of the fence but hell I can take it just be sure to use big words. I'll look up the really hard ones.
Hugs and kisses,
Jerry
Cliff , I did not intend for you to seek him out but it was an open invite to meet in the middle as I don't think it is any further for you than me . As far as bending the knife and doing damage to it because Ed did not want to play with you. Damn , and the other guy called me lame and ignorant.
Why , now I know why the cows were not fornicating( that thar big word does mean : to screw, have sexual relations,do the humping dragon and so on don't it) , and all this time I thought it had to do with coming into heat first . It is called planing not at the drop of a hat . But alas , you call me a coward but you folks are running like a bunch of virgins at a porn star convention . Damn, it hurts when someone doesn't get mad and yell but tries to make it easy for Cliff to just come to a large gathering of Performance minded knife folks and join in.
Damn, help me out here folks or am I going to have to fork over the whole trip or could it be that when not alone the results may be different.I not so sure that all the lameness is on just my side of the fence but hell I can take it just be sure to use big words. I'll look up the really hard ones.
Hugs and kisses,
Jerry
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Bownshoe, don't sweat it. It happens to the best of us 
Jerry, it aint gunna happen. It is much easier to pick sentences (to quote) that can be answered to cast oneself in a positive light, than it is to actually interact and address the entire matter as a whole.
Like this:
"You have money to donate, or a Pronghorn to spare, give it to Gabe to replace the knife which was damaged completly without need had Fowler bothered to simply respond to any of the questions asked and indicated the knife would indeed bend as readily as it did."
So you are blaming Ed for what *you* did?
Or like this:
____________________________________________________________
"As for meeting with Ed, I have tried to contact him several times to discuss the performance of this knife during its use,......."
____________________________________________________________
So maybe if you had contacted him *before* the testing and posting (as I suggested BTW) the lines of communication would still be open.
See?
It is easy to make yourself look good just picking at sentences.
That doesn't happen when you sit around the fire, over a cuppa coffee, and talk face to face.
As far as Gabe being out a fine knife...
He knew what he was getting into when he dropped it in the mailbox.
Then again, it is just another tool...like a can-opener right?
Jerry, it aint gunna happen. It is much easier to pick sentences (to quote) that can be answered to cast oneself in a positive light, than it is to actually interact and address the entire matter as a whole.
Like this:
"You have money to donate, or a Pronghorn to spare, give it to Gabe to replace the knife which was damaged completly without need had Fowler bothered to simply respond to any of the questions asked and indicated the knife would indeed bend as readily as it did."
So you are blaming Ed for what *you* did?
Or like this:
____________________________________________________________
"As for meeting with Ed, I have tried to contact him several times to discuss the performance of this knife during its use,......."
____________________________________________________________
So maybe if you had contacted him *before* the testing and posting (as I suggested BTW) the lines of communication would still be open.
See?
It is easy to make yourself look good just picking at sentences.
That doesn't happen when you sit around the fire, over a cuppa coffee, and talk face to face.
As far as Gabe being out a fine knife...
He knew what he was getting into when he dropped it in the mailbox.
Then again, it is just another tool...like a can-opener right?
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Oct 5, 1998
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- 17,562
Jose :
It isn't possible to tell a knife will take a set before it sets or breaks. The deviation from linear to nonlinear responce happens at the onset of plastic deformation (or brittle failure). As noted in the review some of the results were very unexpected such as the set in the wood digging, and the warp produced by the wood impact.
Once a steel has been plastically deformed it has been functionally damaged. Of course you can still use it as a knife. In fact in his video after bending one of his knives he remarks to the effect that it has been destroyed. of course, it could be fixed by removing the blade, annealing it, rehardening and putting the handle back on.
Read his origional post.
firkin, the student line is just one of the personal attacks, when you can't argue with facts try to attack the individual. It is the same with brownshoe constantly repeating that I was removed as moderator in the hopes that this will make everybody realize that they should ignore my reviews. Instead of course actually dealing with the issues at hand.
stich :
I can solve that problem, I'll just bring along Matthew Perry.
Jerry :
No, Ed did, read the posts.
Ebbtide :
I did. Many times before the review we discussed performance, testing and other issues. Specific to this review, as soon as it became apparent I was going to use one of his knives he refused to discuss any specific issue of performance.
Yes, but slightly more expensive which is the point. If he was selling them for the same price it obviously would not be an issue.
Of course not. However, had I known how easy this knife was to bend, it never would have been bent as there would be no reason to bend it. It would have took a simple statement from Ed, as he made in the above that this was the expected performance. It would have made more sense from my perspective to do so before the knife was bent.
Note early on one of my main contentions was the use of spring tempered spines vs dead soft, the main issue with this is a lack of stiffness and yet Fowler defended his blades with softer spines. Then when it is demonstrated on video that this one bends very easily he conclues of course and you are ignorant for thinking otherwise. Yes, I see a large problem with this.
I specifially asked Ed about the possibility of it being damaged in certain applications, I noted in this thread in the above that I would be concerned about such use. Jose then critises me for raising such questions without trying to bend the knife and how they are so stiff you need a pipe to bend them so there is no need for a spring spine.
Ed reads all of this and makes no comment. Yes I would expect the maker to clearify such issues. I would expect a maker to address any such issues of performance when raised especially when such use is likely to damage the knife.
However I should note that this isn't a uniform opinion, lots of people, makers and users, do not feel that it is part of the makers responsibility to deal with the promoted aspects of their knives (assuming of course they are aware of them).
Cobalt, yes, catching it is the difficult part.
-Cliff
It isn't possible to tell a knife will take a set before it sets or breaks. The deviation from linear to nonlinear responce happens at the onset of plastic deformation (or brittle failure). As noted in the review some of the results were very unexpected such as the set in the wood digging, and the warp produced by the wood impact.
Once a steel has been plastically deformed it has been functionally damaged. Of course you can still use it as a knife. In fact in his video after bending one of his knives he remarks to the effect that it has been destroyed. of course, it could be fixed by removing the blade, annealing it, rehardening and putting the handle back on.
Read his origional post.
firkin, the student line is just one of the personal attacks, when you can't argue with facts try to attack the individual. It is the same with brownshoe constantly repeating that I was removed as moderator in the hopes that this will make everybody realize that they should ignore my reviews. Instead of course actually dealing with the issues at hand.
stich :
I can solve that problem, I'll just bring along Matthew Perry.
Jerry :
No, Ed did, read the posts.
Ebbtide :
I did. Many times before the review we discussed performance, testing and other issues. Specific to this review, as soon as it became apparent I was going to use one of his knives he refused to discuss any specific issue of performance.
Yes, but slightly more expensive which is the point. If he was selling them for the same price it obviously would not be an issue.
Of course not. However, had I known how easy this knife was to bend, it never would have been bent as there would be no reason to bend it. It would have took a simple statement from Ed, as he made in the above that this was the expected performance. It would have made more sense from my perspective to do so before the knife was bent.
Note early on one of my main contentions was the use of spring tempered spines vs dead soft, the main issue with this is a lack of stiffness and yet Fowler defended his blades with softer spines. Then when it is demonstrated on video that this one bends very easily he conclues of course and you are ignorant for thinking otherwise. Yes, I see a large problem with this.
I specifially asked Ed about the possibility of it being damaged in certain applications, I noted in this thread in the above that I would be concerned about such use. Jose then critises me for raising such questions without trying to bend the knife and how they are so stiff you need a pipe to bend them so there is no need for a spring spine.
Ed reads all of this and makes no comment. Yes I would expect the maker to clearify such issues. I would expect a maker to address any such issues of performance when raised especially when such use is likely to damage the knife.
However I should note that this isn't a uniform opinion, lots of people, makers and users, do not feel that it is part of the makers responsibility to deal with the promoted aspects of their knives (assuming of course they are aware of them).
Cobalt, yes, catching it is the difficult part.
-Cliff
Jerry, I was not calling you a coward. I was being facetious by calling Cliff a coward for not going to the knife fest. My whole post was sarcastic which is not helpful. I just get tired of seeing a guy get hammered for no good reason. I think you did an admirable thing by inviting him to the hammer-in and offering to help cover some expenses.
I have only been using knives daily for forty years or so, never professionaly, and I never made any except out of flint and wood, so I obviously don't know cut. I only know that of the dozens of knives I own I would only expect that kind of performance out of my $25 VaporII in AUS6, which I think came from a batch of bad heat treat, and maybe a machete or two. I'm pretty sure my almost 30 years old Buck 110 would compare faily well in any test, in spite of it's archaic technology.
I concur that sometimes sheepskin can stink to some degree, depending on how it was made and subsequently used.
Perhaps the best thing to do is send the knife to the gathering and y'all put it through it's paces. I think Gabe deserves that much.
I have only been using knives daily for forty years or so, never professionaly, and I never made any except out of flint and wood, so I obviously don't know cut. I only know that of the dozens of knives I own I would only expect that kind of performance out of my $25 VaporII in AUS6, which I think came from a batch of bad heat treat, and maybe a machete or two. I'm pretty sure my almost 30 years old Buck 110 would compare faily well in any test, in spite of it's archaic technology.
I concur that sometimes sheepskin can stink to some degree, depending on how it was made and subsequently used.
Perhaps the best thing to do is send the knife to the gathering and y'all put it through it's paces. I think Gabe deserves that much.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- 17,562
Mike informed me by email (aug of 2000) that he didn't want me as moderator any longer for several reasons, some of which were based on information he didn't want to make public, and of course it was a personal and private decision which is why it was never discussed in public by myself or Mike. It was a voluntary service I was doing as a favor, when he didn't want it any more, I obviously didn't do it. I have talked to Mike since then, while having never met him personally, any meeting between us would be friendly, at least on my part anyway.
If you wanted to make an arguement against my reviews along this line, a stronger argument would be to give examples of makers who feel that I am not a good choice for such work, it should be easy to find examples of this, I can give you a list of about a dozen to start with, there are lots more. Of course I don't think that is a very logical argument, you would not in general take such an approach (ask the manufacturer about the person doing an evaulation - they are kind of biased obviously), however along the lines of the character attack nonsense and other such ramblings, that would be the most powerful of such approaches.
If you wanted to make an actual sensible arguement, based on coherent logic, then you would draft up a series of requirements for a reviewer (and of course apply these uniformly, not selectively), and then see if I fit those criteria. My personal such list is really short :
1) Has the individual experience with the knife
2) Has the individual used other knives so as to give an informed opinion on the relative characteristics
3) Has the individual the ability to communicate such ideas in a known language with reasonable ability
4) has no monetary ties to the product in question, or is a close relative or personal friend of the maker/manufacturer
That is about it. Of course the more these qualifications are met, the better the review. For example Jeff Clark has sharpened knives professionally and thus his opinion on a lot of sharpening related matters is very strong due to his considerable experience over a wide range of knives and sharpening tools - much more so than the average person (there are lots of other reasons to listen to him of course).
Greg Davenport, while not having used as many differnent types of knives as many, has as a survival instructor a solid basis for selecting knives in high stress and emergency situations because his experience in such cases if rare. Of course most of which you can extrapolate or simulate, however you don't have nearly as complete a viewpoint unless you have actually done the work and there is always the possibility about being wrong of course. Building a shelter in a real emergency situation as opposed to training is similar - but not identical.
In regards to the third, Mike Swaim was one of the first (if not the first) to do controlled comparisons of knives considering angles and grit finishes. This really strengthened his commentary. It in fact provided the fundamental basis for a lot of knowledge which is simply taken as fact now, but was not when he first started talking about such work way back (in the dark ages before Bladeforums).
The fourth criteria can be relaxed if you know the individual. There are many people who I would trust to give unbiased opinions (in private) of products that they are attached to. However as noted, this requires personal knowledge and judgement of the individual, and ideally it isn't an issue.
-Cliff
If you wanted to make an arguement against my reviews along this line, a stronger argument would be to give examples of makers who feel that I am not a good choice for such work, it should be easy to find examples of this, I can give you a list of about a dozen to start with, there are lots more. Of course I don't think that is a very logical argument, you would not in general take such an approach (ask the manufacturer about the person doing an evaulation - they are kind of biased obviously), however along the lines of the character attack nonsense and other such ramblings, that would be the most powerful of such approaches.
If you wanted to make an actual sensible arguement, based on coherent logic, then you would draft up a series of requirements for a reviewer (and of course apply these uniformly, not selectively), and then see if I fit those criteria. My personal such list is really short :
1) Has the individual experience with the knife
2) Has the individual used other knives so as to give an informed opinion on the relative characteristics
3) Has the individual the ability to communicate such ideas in a known language with reasonable ability
4) has no monetary ties to the product in question, or is a close relative or personal friend of the maker/manufacturer
That is about it. Of course the more these qualifications are met, the better the review. For example Jeff Clark has sharpened knives professionally and thus his opinion on a lot of sharpening related matters is very strong due to his considerable experience over a wide range of knives and sharpening tools - much more so than the average person (there are lots of other reasons to listen to him of course).
Greg Davenport, while not having used as many differnent types of knives as many, has as a survival instructor a solid basis for selecting knives in high stress and emergency situations because his experience in such cases if rare. Of course most of which you can extrapolate or simulate, however you don't have nearly as complete a viewpoint unless you have actually done the work and there is always the possibility about being wrong of course. Building a shelter in a real emergency situation as opposed to training is similar - but not identical.
In regards to the third, Mike Swaim was one of the first (if not the first) to do controlled comparisons of knives considering angles and grit finishes. This really strengthened his commentary. It in fact provided the fundamental basis for a lot of knowledge which is simply taken as fact now, but was not when he first started talking about such work way back (in the dark ages before Bladeforums).
The fourth criteria can be relaxed if you know the individual. There are many people who I would trust to give unbiased opinions (in private) of products that they are attached to. However as noted, this requires personal knowledge and judgement of the individual, and ideally it isn't an issue.
-Cliff
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
I can't speak for Mike Turber, ask him. Again this was a private email matter, ask Mike if you want his perspective or more details. I understood his viewpoint and hold nothing against him for the decision. For those interested in an arguement along those lines, a better case would be made using Spark who has publically commented on my reviews and such general issues in various threads which can be seen here on the forums. They are not complementary to put it mildly, and would in fact directly support the argument that Brownshoe implies, more details can be seen in the threads.
This arguement is of course of little value. Shortly after I was removed as moderator someone offered to host a domain and provide the server and all such issues for me to run a discussion forum - what does this prove (nothing I just use it as a contrary example). I never took him up on the offer (the registery just expired a couple of months ago), nor the other offers to moderate forums on other boards since then. I only read this knife discussion board and simply don't have time to spend spanning others, let alone moderate threads, I can't even keep up to date on a daily basis with email or the threads I am participating in.
It is an interesting perspective, but not one of which I think has much value outside of just trolling. I was just recently asked by a maker to evaluate a prototype knife with an extreme geometry. This is what I am interested in and this is where my primary interest lies. Yes there are those who think the reviews are not very good (with varies levels of negativity) just as there are those who find them useful, some people more so than others. There are makers who are open to working with me, and those that are not. Again with varies levels of intensity for both approaches.
-Cliff
This arguement is of course of little value. Shortly after I was removed as moderator someone offered to host a domain and provide the server and all such issues for me to run a discussion forum - what does this prove (nothing I just use it as a contrary example). I never took him up on the offer (the registery just expired a couple of months ago), nor the other offers to moderate forums on other boards since then. I only read this knife discussion board and simply don't have time to spend spanning others, let alone moderate threads, I can't even keep up to date on a daily basis with email or the threads I am participating in.
It is an interesting perspective, but not one of which I think has much value outside of just trolling. I was just recently asked by a maker to evaluate a prototype knife with an extreme geometry. This is what I am interested in and this is where my primary interest lies. Yes there are those who think the reviews are not very good (with varies levels of negativity) just as there are those who find them useful, some people more so than others. There are makers who are open to working with me, and those that are not. Again with varies levels of intensity for both approaches.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,152
Cliff,
Your statements to the effect that knives are just tools and no different than a can opener are as out of place as the comments about your being a student. Whether you can appreciate it or not, Ed's knives are one of a kind pieces of functional art.
As far as the knives bending, I did admit that my 1/8" stock blade would bend with a moderate amount of force. My full sized pronghorn resists bending to a much greater degree and gives a little bit of flex to either side before it takes a set, that's when I stop applying pressure. If the blade didn't have any flex then I would have stopped applying pressure as soon as it began to bend. I also have thicker camp style knives that are much harder to bend, those I'm sure would take a lever to bend. Not that I've ever tried bending my knives before this thread, and I don't believe that Ed's knives are so soft that they would bend during normal use.
If your purpose is to dig a hole in wood it can be done, as I demonstrated above, without damaging the blade in any way. And I'm not talking a lot of user skill here, just common sense. If you're going to use a piece of wood to hammer the blade through something, maybe full power swings will bend the blade, try hitting it with less force? I have seen a pronghorn, with a somewhat deformed spine, that was used in such a way in an emergency, except a rock was used.
-Jose
PS **Galileo, Franklin, Faraday, Michelson and Morely, Pasteur, Watson and Crick, Mendel...** Did anyone else find it ammusing that Cliff was compared to these guys not for making any kind of a great discovery but simply for not having any credentials either?
Your statements to the effect that knives are just tools and no different than a can opener are as out of place as the comments about your being a student. Whether you can appreciate it or not, Ed's knives are one of a kind pieces of functional art.
As far as the knives bending, I did admit that my 1/8" stock blade would bend with a moderate amount of force. My full sized pronghorn resists bending to a much greater degree and gives a little bit of flex to either side before it takes a set, that's when I stop applying pressure. If the blade didn't have any flex then I would have stopped applying pressure as soon as it began to bend. I also have thicker camp style knives that are much harder to bend, those I'm sure would take a lever to bend. Not that I've ever tried bending my knives before this thread, and I don't believe that Ed's knives are so soft that they would bend during normal use.
If your purpose is to dig a hole in wood it can be done, as I demonstrated above, without damaging the blade in any way. And I'm not talking a lot of user skill here, just common sense. If you're going to use a piece of wood to hammer the blade through something, maybe full power swings will bend the blade, try hitting it with less force? I have seen a pronghorn, with a somewhat deformed spine, that was used in such a way in an emergency, except a rock was used.
-Jose
PS **Galileo, Franklin, Faraday, Michelson and Morely, Pasteur, Watson and Crick, Mendel...** Did anyone else find it ammusing that Cliff was compared to these guys not for making any kind of a great discovery but simply for not having any credentials either?
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
- Messages
- 2,737
"I concur that sometimes sheepskin can stink to some degree, depending on how it was made and subsequently used."
True.
But in such cases, did the stink arise from the sheepskin, or did the sheepskin just absorb something that was already present on the makers and users?
The quote is also true if "sheepskin" is replaced by just about any human endeavor or occupation. It is as lame to make presumptions about another based on the presence/absence of a sheepskin, as it is based upon their occupation.
Forwarding the knife to the gathering seems the most sensible way proposed to try and answer the questions that have arisen, if the questions are truely about the knife. It's up to the knife's owner, as always.
To believe that any student has no obligations and the ability to schedule a cross-continental trip at any time is ignorant. Ignorant of students.
To read my previous post in any other way or think that the suggestion of igorance in any other area was communicated is to read between the lines and place a chip upon one's own shoulder.
I'm kinda sorry that I posted into this mess, there's an odor here too.
True.
But in such cases, did the stink arise from the sheepskin, or did the sheepskin just absorb something that was already present on the makers and users?
The quote is also true if "sheepskin" is replaced by just about any human endeavor or occupation. It is as lame to make presumptions about another based on the presence/absence of a sheepskin, as it is based upon their occupation.
Forwarding the knife to the gathering seems the most sensible way proposed to try and answer the questions that have arisen, if the questions are truely about the knife. It's up to the knife's owner, as always.
To believe that any student has no obligations and the ability to schedule a cross-continental trip at any time is ignorant. Ignorant of students.
To read my previous post in any other way or think that the suggestion of igorance in any other area was communicated is to read between the lines and place a chip upon one's own shoulder.
I'm kinda sorry that I posted into this mess, there's an odor here too.
- Joined
- May 21, 2001
- Messages
- 2,871
Cliff - As I said before, no one is well served by this process. I know you disagree, but hear me out. In the future I would refrain from testing an individual custom knife, unless the maker asks you to test it, and then I would have at it. Why? Because this is a lose/lose propostion from the gitgo for the following reasons:
1) Unless the knife being tested is sent or given to you by the maker, you cannot be certain of its provenance. This leaves the tester open to all kinds of innuendo, none of which can be proven one way or the other.
2) Testing one knife from one maker from one time period really offers very little information in general. If I wanted to buy that specific knife, then your test might be of some value to me. Otherwise it tells me nothing about a new custom knife from that maker who builds one according to my specs. Production knives are a different story. One knife out of a production line may be representative of the line as a whole, although abnormalities could make test outcomes unrepresentative of the product line even in that situation. If some buyer sends you a custom knife for you to test, that's fine, but I would send the results back to the person who sent you the knife and let him/her decide what to do with it. If you do post test results, sanitize it, otherwise posting results here on Bladeforums runs counter to your stated interests in testing certain knives and materials for their inherent qualities. To meet that goal, all you need do is describe the knife, the material you used to test it with, and the results without reference to the custom maker (again I see production knives in a somewhat different category). People can draw general conclusions from your data without becoming mired in personality conflicts and economic interests (You think any of the Ed Fowler knife owners out there are happy about this thread? Their collection may have just dropped in value).
3) A custom knife is just that. It's true value lies in the eye of the beholder. Aesthetic value does not fit well with the scientific method. A custom knife's blade could flop around like a limp you know what and still be the pride of the owner's collection.
4) Too many personalities come into play. Of course a maker is going to be upset if you test one of his knives and the test comes out badly, and of course you are going to be upset when the maker and his followers drag your name through the mud for being so arrogant to judge the knife in the first place - even when you know you did everything you could to be fair and objective.
5) Testing one knife from one custom maker is like having sex with one woman and then posting the results, including the woman's name, for everyone to read. Even if your experience was mostly positive, the woman is still not going to be happy about it. Get the woman's consent first before you tell the world she's a mediocre lay. Otherwise don't kiss and tell.
If I were a moderator I would lock this thread. The test stands for itself - take it or leave it. Any more derisive palaver will only make the situation worse for everyone involved. Don't get me wrong, I value your tests, Cliff. I just think you headed down the wrong road when you decided to test a custom knife given to you by a third party. In this case, the person taking the high road simply moves on without further comment.
1) Unless the knife being tested is sent or given to you by the maker, you cannot be certain of its provenance. This leaves the tester open to all kinds of innuendo, none of which can be proven one way or the other.
2) Testing one knife from one maker from one time period really offers very little information in general. If I wanted to buy that specific knife, then your test might be of some value to me. Otherwise it tells me nothing about a new custom knife from that maker who builds one according to my specs. Production knives are a different story. One knife out of a production line may be representative of the line as a whole, although abnormalities could make test outcomes unrepresentative of the product line even in that situation. If some buyer sends you a custom knife for you to test, that's fine, but I would send the results back to the person who sent you the knife and let him/her decide what to do with it. If you do post test results, sanitize it, otherwise posting results here on Bladeforums runs counter to your stated interests in testing certain knives and materials for their inherent qualities. To meet that goal, all you need do is describe the knife, the material you used to test it with, and the results without reference to the custom maker (again I see production knives in a somewhat different category). People can draw general conclusions from your data without becoming mired in personality conflicts and economic interests (You think any of the Ed Fowler knife owners out there are happy about this thread? Their collection may have just dropped in value).
3) A custom knife is just that. It's true value lies in the eye of the beholder. Aesthetic value does not fit well with the scientific method. A custom knife's blade could flop around like a limp you know what and still be the pride of the owner's collection.
4) Too many personalities come into play. Of course a maker is going to be upset if you test one of his knives and the test comes out badly, and of course you are going to be upset when the maker and his followers drag your name through the mud for being so arrogant to judge the knife in the first place - even when you know you did everything you could to be fair and objective.
5) Testing one knife from one custom maker is like having sex with one woman and then posting the results, including the woman's name, for everyone to read. Even if your experience was mostly positive, the woman is still not going to be happy about it. Get the woman's consent first before you tell the world she's a mediocre lay. Otherwise don't kiss and tell.
If I were a moderator I would lock this thread. The test stands for itself - take it or leave it. Any more derisive palaver will only make the situation worse for everyone involved. Don't get me wrong, I value your tests, Cliff. I just think you headed down the wrong road when you decided to test a custom knife given to you by a third party. In this case, the person taking the high road simply moves on without further comment.
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