Question for Cliff Stamp re: Ed Fowler's knives...

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One of the reasons Cliff tests knives is to help others make informed decisions. He has stated this in so many words before. This is the reason I read reviews made by anybody, about any product, although I then weight the reviews as I see fit. I am sometimes chagrined to read that a product that I have previously purchased is considered either inferior or not a best buy, or even not intended for the uses for which I purchased it. But my resolve is then strengthened, and I am more often rewarded by my research. When my experience is completely different than reported I seldom consider manurfacturing variances, rather I wonder what they're smoking and where can I get some.

When I first heard the phrase "caveat emptor" from my father, and semi-understood the ensuing lesson, I thought it unfair. Now I think it is a valuble philosophy when employed by the consumer, and an immoral practice (if not criminal) when used by the producer.

I wholeheartedly agree that one does not test drive art. But functional art should be just that, and in that order. I know of few people who would agree that the test results as posted by Cliff would be considered state of the art by any strech of the imagination for the '90's.
 
I really like these quotes.
Originally posted by Ed Fowler
Yes, it would appear to be so to those who have limited knowledge about the nature of cut.

Those who know history about knives have a much greater understanding than those who tend to ignore knowledge.
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In fact, I like this one better:
Originally posted by Stich
I guess I just don't know cut.
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You may not know cut, but you sure know quote. And that, Mr. Stich, is some good quote.

In fact, I believe that a slight modification of Stich's quote could serve as the official, formal, forum insult:
Well, you simply don't know cut.
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or, in a more snooty, haughty manner, done in, say, the tone of Sir John Gielgud, or Thirston Howell III:
Well, you, sir, quite apparently have limited knowledge about the nature of cut.
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Steelhed (Mike),
Good commentary about ethical practices in your last post. It sums up my general thoughts about this review, or other reviews also.
Thanks,
David
 
Mike: Just read your thread, good thoughts, but don't worry about the value of my knives droping due to Cliff's reported tests, the calls and e mails I have received are very perceptive.
Thanks to all.
 
Originally posted by brownshoe
A historical perspective:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89720&highlight=sean+perkins
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Originally posted by brownshoe
In a thread on microserrations, Cliff stated that he disbelieved all knifemaker performance claims. He called David Boye a charlatan for claiming that his 440C dendritic outperforms 440C stock removal. Cliff states microserrations are BS, although Boye has the micrographs to prove their existence. So, by nature, Cliff has stated he won't believe anything from a maker.

Arguing with Cliff is like wrestling with a greased hog, sooner or later you realize the hog is enjoying it and you'll never win.
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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=261784

Brownshoe, sounds to me like you are the instigator here. That is quite obvious. I read several links and all I find is you making you presumptions about what is in Cliff's mind and not what he said. In effect, you put words in his mouth. You need to read the content a little more carefully before you open your mouth and :footinmou
 
Originally posted by Ed Fowler
...the calls and e mails I have received are very perceptive.
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Perception, like art, and like what is considered a "working art knife", is in the eye and mind of the beholder.

There are varying perceptions.
There are also polite people with variant perceptions.
Your varying perception will govern how you interpret what I just wrote.
 
Ok, thanks. Gabe can I take a look at this knife before or after it comes back to you? I'll be very happy to report on it or not. Just would like to take a look at it, thanks.
 
Rob -
Perception, like art, and like what is considered a "working art knife", is in the eye and mind of the beholder.

There are varying perceptions.
There are also polite people with variant perceptions.
Your varying perception will govern how you interpret what I just wrote.
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Yeah, but ... won't it all just depend on whether you know cut or not?
 
Originally posted by ColoradoDave
Rob - Yeah, but ... won't it all just depend on whether you know cut or not?
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Dave, yes, it would be my perception of my own perception that, indeed, it'll depend on whether or not I know anything about the nature of cut.

Your perception of my doublespeak may vary.

Ok ... that'll be quite enough fertilizer outta me for one day.
 
What is right ? That is what is left after you have done everything wrong. I am glad you two do not have anything to do with making things with moving parts .

Hello Ed, I hope you are still using that line I sent you a few years back.
Floyd O`Leary

Cliff; In an imperfect world there are only perfect ideas. Yes the door is shut, don`t go back and check it !

Every one be well.
Floyd
 
Geezz ! I stopped reading at page 4, your posts make my eyes dry ! :D

As a guy who uses Ed's work everyday, I think I'd put a little comment into this discussion. I use his Long Yearling almost everyday for general chores. I cut chisal rope, plastic seal, boxes, meat, even I cook using her. I haven't brought her hunting yet; I happen to be an animal lover. (An animal lover uses a knife with a horn's handle and leather sheath....go figure...:D). The fact is, I know Ed's works to be the best for me. She has a lot of characters, and she's a really aggressive cutter that will hold a great edge for a very long time. The only thing that could compare to her edge holding property is another custom knife that has a very thin convex ground blade. But still, Ed's lady wins.

Yes, there are some defficiencies. For example, the blade is too thick. I find the 'defficiencies' are created because the knife is not used in the way that she was designed for at the first place. I just think that a knife is only as good if the user understands her and use her in the manner she was created for.

I also own a Busse Battle Mistress (the mother of all beasts !!) that performs terrificly when I do some heavy chopping. I can cut 2x4 in less than 2 minutes using the BM, and I'm a very small guy. Why ? Because I use the knife according to its design. Even a world champion would have a tough time skinning some games using a BM.

I found it really funny to compare Ed's work and Busse. They both design their knives for different purpose. How can you compare apples and oranges ?

My point is, I don't know how the heck Ed's makes his ladies or what material he uses, I just care with how they perform and how I take care of them.

My ladies :

The larger one is a Pronghorn - no name yet
The smaller one is a Long Yearling - Gabriella (don't you laugh at me naming my lady !)
 

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Originally posted by beluga
She has a lot of characters, and she's a really aggressive cutter that will hold a great edge for a very long time. The only thing that could compare to her edge holding property is another custom knife that has a very thin convex ground blade. But still, Ed's lady wins.
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Statements like yours are, pretty much exactly, why some direct testing was of some interest to many of us who hadn't already posted "Ed Fowler" under our favorite knife in our profiles.
Originally posted by beluga
My ladies :

The larger one is a Pronghorn - no name yet
The smaller one is a Long Yearling - Gabriella (don't you laugh at me naming my lady !)
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I've had my fill. All this feminine personification of a handmade knife, an inanimate object, is really thick and ankle deep. When I see people doing this kind of thing, I often wonder if they also talk out loud to themselves, name their body parts, name their screwdrivers, their hammers, etc. Thaaaaat's pretty goofy. Not in a humorous way.

Geez, Beluga. That's embarassing, :o and I don't even know you. You are directly imitating Ed's style, for some strange reason. Did ya buy a hat and boots like Ed's too, so you can wear the full gitup when you strap on your Yearling? ;) Ed has his own style, lives his life as a Rancher and Knifemaker, and that's great, but it's his style for cryin' out loud.
Originally posted by beluga
I just think that a knife is only as good if the user understands her and use her in the manner she was created for.
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A rehash of the obvious. Well, yeah, that's the basic idea behind the use of any tool, from a custom knife to a jig saw, to a food processor, to a tooth brush.

There is an alternative in the custom made knife world also that can be considered. You can work with a custom maker to have a knife built to your sketch, to your design in terms of blade geometry, handle size, shape, ergonomics, blade hardness and steel choice. Of course it helps to pick a maker that is already making a knife that is quite close to what you are hoping to achieve with your inanimate tool.
 
All of Mr Fowlers knives seem to be females. I would like to know why that is. Wouldnt male knives be stronger?
 
Well, I don't know about Ed, but I do have my reason naming a knife. The word 'lady', yes, it's Ed's term, and I borrow it. I see knives as a life long companion. Like a 'wife'. Even my girlfriend sometimes gets jealous with the knives.

Male is stronger, but I will look 'gay' if I have a 'male' companion who's always beside me.

I don't name only the hand made piece. I name my BM : Black Widow.
I name my balisongs. Basically I name any knives that have sentimental value; where it has passed some abuse or where it ha accompanied me for some times.

If you don't like others naming their knives, then don't mind them. I paid my knives with my honestly-earned salary. They're mine and I do what I want as I see fit. If ya don't like it, well, tough break.
:yawn:

don't you laugh at me naming my lady !
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I was trying to impersonate Ed, but I guess you can't take the humor. Geezz... :rolleyes:
First, I like Ed's style. Second, I do it for fun (joke/humor). Third, the highest form is praise is imitation. If you can't deal with them, again, tough break. ;)
 
I have followed this thread with interest and am stunned at the response of Mr. Fowler and his supporters. I certainly hope none of you who feel that his knives are worth $1K for any but aesthetic uses have any role in quality testing of guns or aircraft. Since personal attacks on anyone who questions his product are now the norm I am happy to admit that I have made exactly one knife(ca 1955) and that under the supervision of my father who had made quite a few for his friends and fellow hunters.(It was a very handsome knife(combo of deer antler and steel from an industrial hack saw blade) and was stolen at church camp! ) I am a scientist in one life and in another have used a lot of knives and axes in the course of running traplines and hunting over the course of a few decades. While I admire custom knives and could afford them, I have only used production knives(I spend a lot of time on glacial rivers and the "kerchunk" of a $1k knife hitting the river would not be a pleasant sound) and have high regard for almost all of the ones that I have used over the years. I do not give them names or refer to them as "ladies" or associate a gender with my rifles, knives, axes, or even screwdrivers. I also like companies that have lasting concern for the quality of their product and stand behind it. I have never before seen an attitude as cavalier as that of Mr. Fowler and friends about quality control and systematic testing of the product. I do not know Cliff Stamp but do find his tests useful and I am able to decide what aspects of his testing are important for my uses.
 
Originally posted by daryl douthat
I have never before seen an attitude as cavalier as that of Mr. Fowler and friends about quality control and systematic testing of the product.
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I have learned a good bit, and reinforced a good number of existing ideas, from inside this thread, a couple summary points:

1. I will be sure to participate in the design of a custom, hard use knife with the maker I choose to execute such a knife (as I have done on several occasions already, but I've made a couple mistakes, in hind sight here, also). I will choose a maker that is already making something close to what I want of course to simplify things. Things like blade shape, grind profile, various thicknesses at places like the point, behind the edge... guard size and execution, blade spine radiusing, handle shape and materials, much about overal ergonomics of handle for intended use, and sheath design. Things like "drawn spine" vs. "selective hardening" now will be part of the heat treat discussion up front, along with my expectations for specific hardness levels (direct correlation with many aspects of blade performance, e.g. strength, toughness, edge retention) of spine, tip, edge. Steel choice of course.

2. I will choose a maker who made my knife at the same time that he had one foot in the scientific aspects of metallurgy and heat treating, and the other firmly in blade making and testing, whether that be forging or stock removal. I will prefer a maker who does his own heat treating in a manner that makes sense to me. I will be very cautious about using a maker who does not have a Rockwell tester in his shop that get's used quite routinely, as a standard QC protocol instrument.

3. If the maker farms out heat treating, I'll want to know a good bit about the heat treater... what other work do they do for makers or industry, what their methods are, what their limitations are (e.g. austenizing temp, big batches, argon quenches, etc), do they have special methods to handle knife blades, or just treat blades similarly to other parts they treat, as "oven filler". Maybe more importantly, how the knife maker ensures he is getting a good job out of the heat treater (e.g., maker has Rockwell Tester and samples the returned product for hardness, consistency, and tests a few blades or otherwise analyzes grain structure and blade performance of the returned product). Makers who are reserved, reluctant, men of few words, or just not particuarly good communicators, will be at a disadvantage.

4. I will never again assume any level of past competence, any level of performance, about older product from that maker where the knife is intended to be used heavily in the field... even those with MS ratings, stamped or not on their knives.

5. Reinforced that price, whether driven from the maker or demand in aftermarket (they are joined at the hip typically, but not always), does not always beget performance. But you only have to look towards a few of the obviously overhyped makers out there to already know that.

YMMV.
 
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