Question re: intermediate stage burrs

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Martin,

Your deep analysis on sharpening dynamics is certainly helpful to continue experimenting!
:thumbup:

 

[HeavyHanded]

Chris, Russ, am glad it comes in handy.

I've spent a bunch of time and some of my sanity digging away at burrs and formation based on abrasive interaction. The father in law has helped a great deal in this respect too, the depth of info on topics like this that he dismisses with a hand wave as secondary is amazing. I might point out an observation and he can not only clarify it but quantify it in many cases and provide application examples. Then he's on to something else...At 85 he's slowing down, so built his own lift for his basement steps - gotta be able to access his washing machine and tool shop!

Just play around with lapping, grinding, sanding, and blends of the three - you'll see patterns in burr formation or lack thereof, and effect on the apex that will really come in handy, especially when breaking in a new stone, or working with a mystery steel. High magnification not needed, 10x or so is plenty.

Martin

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Martin,

Revisited the VG 10. Over stropping (you know me ), resulting in rounded apex (read: the destress part happened here), back to DMT EE & some minimal strop on the end grain with autosol, it is very sharp! Having higher angle, it still feels less sharp than 8Cr, but much better than my first time.

Some other possibilities I can think off is the the original owner used it hard and resulted in very blunted apex with deeper than my usual weakened areas. Or simply the factory grind overheating.

Fact is, now it's easier to simply maintain with EEF. I'll see how it goes, this gonna be my EDC.

 

[mycough]

Chris, which grind endura did you pick up? My wife and my son are both hard on knives and have had good luck with the old sabre grind. My son has had his for six years and is tough on that poor knife and it has held up great. My wife goes through a bunch of zip ties and packing straps as well as probing through dirt in the garden, it can be a challenge to resharpen but is doing well all things considered.
I have one in zdp 189 that krein reground for me way back when. It is a light sabre but is used quite carefully because of the thinness of the grind.
Have fun with it, once I figured out vg10 from a sharpening standpoint it has turned out to be decent steel.
Russ

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Russ,

It's sabre grind. Used. I'm guessing with more TLC it should turn out well. I don't think all the comments on the steel being balanced & easy to sharpen being untrue. It's likely just because I haven't found the right approach.

Thanks for encouragement! As you said, need to figure out how

 

[mycough]

Make no mistake, vg10 irritated me for awhile. I could sharpen d2 and zdp189 for instance but I had fits for some time with that steel. Have fun with it Chris, you are a better sharpener than I for sure, I know you will figure it out. Russ

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David,

Thank you. A poor mans paper wheel (inspired by it actually).
This is the endgrain strop. Long before Luong introduced his balance strop.

To go back on topic, isn't burr actually a microscopic roll?

:thumbup:
Sort of amazing how some of the improvised tools work so well.

On the thought of a burr being a microscopic roll, I think that could be true most of the time. The only possible difference I might see, is that some burrs will be weakened steel, in the sense that they've been damaged to the point they no longer retain the same inherent strength as the rest of the steel. That's why some can be removed by lesser & simpler means, like simply scrubbing them off on our jeans or similar. On the other hand, SOME burrs can be amazingly strong and tough, and I sometimes actually gain respect for a given steel based on how tenacious it's burrs are, and how hard it sometimes is to 'flip' them or otherwise remove them. I have a custom folder in ATS-34 at fairly high hardness (60+), and had a heck of a time getting the edge thinned and as sharp as I wanted, due in large part to the toughest burrs I've ever seen. Once I finally did get it as sharp as I wanted, the edge is amazingly strong for being as thin as it is (it's a very thin hollow grind).


David

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Dave, the ag Russell folding santoku is a great rig isn't it? I bought one for camping, then bought a second one for my truck. It is better than 90% of the kitchen knives at friends homes. I am known to run out to the truck to grab it in order to help prepare food at a get together. At 65$ it is a true bargain. Russ

I agree, it's a nice little knife. I picked up two of them a while back, when A.G.R. had them on sale.


David

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Martin,

Revisited the VG 10. Over stropping (you know me ), resulting in rounded apex (read: the destress part happened here), back to DMT EE & some minimal strop on the end grain with autosol, it is very sharp! Having higher angle, it still feels less sharp than 8Cr, but much better than my first time.

Some other possibilities I can think off is the the original owner used it hard and resulted in very blunted apex with deeper than my usual weakened areas. Or simply the factory grind overheating.

Fact is, now it's easier to simply maintain with EEF. I'll see how it goes, this gonna be my EDC.

After reading & posting in the thread earlier, I've been fiddling with another stropping scheme on one of my Spyderco VG-10 folders (the 'Rookie' model; sort of a scaled down 'Police' model). I used what amounts to a wooden tongue depressor with a little bit of Flitz applied, and it works very well on this steel and several others I've since tried (420HC from Case, as well as their CV steel, and another A.G. Russell in VG-10). The 'tongue depressor' is what Walmart sells as 'craft sticks' in their hobby/crafting supplies section (it's where I got my supply of them). If rounding the apex on a strop is a concern, using compound on wood such as this works verywell to avoid that, and really kicks up the sharpness & polish as well.


David

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

David,

Thank you. Very likely it's over stropping on the makeshift strop.
I'll try on one layer paper over WB next time.

Russ,

Since removing burr now seems to be easier on DMT EE leading pass, I suspect old apex was really weakened. I did a light pass over ceramic at 90° to flatten the apex (that one can see reflection on flat apex) but maybe that was not enough. Will keep trying, again, thank you for encouragement.
Here is the SG and it's SB counterpart.

Martin,

WB will get it's turn tuning up this edge

 

[Rey HRH]

David,

Thank you. A poor mans paper wheel (inspired by it actually).
This is the endgrain strop. Long before Luong introduced his balance strop.

Okay, you have me interested in that "end grain" strop. What is it or what is it made of? I thought at first it could be the end grain of a wooden board but I wondered why you have some paper clips on it.

 

[mycough]

I believe Chris made it out if corrugated cardboard. He will tell you if I am incorrect. Russ

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Russ, Rey,

It's made from single layer cardboard stacked together, held by the clips.
It can be from instant drinks box, kleenex box, etc. Non corrugated so that it can be compressed tighter.

Won't be as good as washboard with single or double layer of paper + compound, for the apex clean up (washboard is definitely better). The strop'sflatness is quite questionable, but you can make a better one, and mostly I use it now to do light polish & rust removal.

Good things about it is that the clips sort of 'protects' the surface when folded up, so I can just toss it into my bag. Added oil to make the compound stick to the 'filament/strands', otherwise the white (Autosol) is quite dusty & messy. If blackened/loaded, it can be scrubbed off and reapply.

Have not used it for a long time until David suggested denim + white, which I believe this should have same effect: scrub off the burr but not hard enough to deflect & make new one.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I cannot claim to have invented the endgrain strop, but did tinker with it prior to the Washboard project - as my "strops" became more and more aggressive, it became tougher to clean them off and keep in good shape. Was always interested in mimicking the effect from paper wheels at manual speeds and this was one of the concept strops. This is my version, an easier method might be to cut the top off a book with a band saw and wood screw it to some scrap - you want the grian to be oriented for maximum beam strength to resist collapsing or flopping over.

Chris's version looks a lot more practical than mine... They do work pretty darn well.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Martin,

It seems tinkerers think alike.
WB is a much better strop though :thumbup:

 

[Rey HRH]

I cannot claim to have invented the endgrain strop, but did tinker with it prior to the Washboard project - as my "strops" became more and more aggressive, it became tougher to clean them off and keep in good shape. Was always interested in mimicking the effect from paper wheels at manual speeds and this was one of the concept strops. This is my version, an easier method might be to cut the top off a book with a band saw and wood screw it to some scrap - you want the grian to be oriented for maximum beam strength to resist collapsing or flopping over.

Chris's version looks a lot more practical than mine... They do work pretty darn well.

That's the thought that came to my mind. Just get a catalog and clamp down near the edge. Problem is companies don't send out as many catalogs if any. Just the edges of the paper with a little give won't really affect the blade but as they riffle across the edge should have enough cut to scrape away the burr.

 

[HeavyHanded]

That's the thought that came to my mind. Just get a catalog and clamp down near the edge. Problem is companies don't send out as many catalogs if any. Just the edges of the paper with a little give won't really affect the blade but as they riffle across the edge should have enough cut to scrape away the burr.

Put some compound on it and off you go. The idea is to have in effect a flatter, harder surface that will reduce rounding at the apex, yet still accept compound and have a slight bit of give to remove smaller burrs. In my experience, you'd have to glue or stitch it into a near solid block to get good results with no compound. There will be a slight polishing effect, but no burnishing.

My next step was going to be a leather strop made up of strips stacked on end, like a butcher block.

I found as the surface became harder and stock removal increases, the surface will load up more often - it becomes sort of like using a softish polishing grade waterstone with no water. It will also become hard enough that one might actually raise a burr while working if not observant, that's where the specific compound can have a big effect.

Here's another one I made from card stock, cut every third sheet a little short. Is specifically for doing serrations, the tips track between the high cards and it reduces rounding of the teeth. The high points track in the scallops and do a pretty good job of finishing em off, both sides. Cannot do anything more than touchups though, I use a DMT tapered rod for any actual grinding/repair.

 

[Rey HRH]

Russ, Rey,

It's made from single layer cardboard stacked together, held by the clips.
It can be from instant drinks box, kleenex box, etc. Non corrugated so that it can be compressed tighter.

I cannot claim to have invented the endgrain strop, but did tinker with it prior to the Washboard project - as my "strops" became more and more aggressive, it became tougher to clean them off and keep in good shape. Was always interested in mimicking the effect from paper wheels at manual speeds and this was one of the concept strops. This is my version, an easier method might be to cut the top off a book with a band saw and wood screw it to some scrap - you want the grian to be oriented for maximum beam strength to resist collapsing or flopping over.

Chris's version looks a lot more practical than mine... They do work pretty darn well.

Here's what I made today. I had thought to make it along the length wise dimension but the bars I found were not long enough. The next longer one I found online was 20 inches which might be too long and unwieldy. My thought is if I wear this side down then I can get to the point where I could switch to the long side.

I just tried the knife I use as a letter opener and it worked really well in "sharpening" it. But my thought still is to use it as a "deburrer" in that it shouldn't affect the blade itself with the slight give of the paper but as I swipe the edge diagonally, the edges riffling will take away the burr.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Rey,

Nice!

As update on the E4 I had been struggling with, I re-bevel one more time. This time taking heed of Martin and David's advice to pay close attention to every grit deburr, the result is much better now, and the end grain strop still works well to further deburr it together with edge leading on EE. No ceramics this time.

 

[mycough]

Rey,

Nice!

As update on the E4 I had been struggling with, I re-bevel one more time. This time taking heed of Martin and David's advice to pay close attention to every grit deburr, the result is much better now, and the end grain strop still works well to further deburr it together with edge leading on EE. No ceramics this time.

Good news, use it hard friend.
Russ