Random Thought Thread

MR HAPPY said:
Thank you for your response.

I sold that FK2 with Ghost Black G10 & titanium hardware for $419 total to AllMyDigits. Please let's remember that knife collecting is supposed to be fun. I have no intentions of ignoring you or anyone else over what I choose to ask for the knives I sell LOL. Some knives I make a bit, some I lose a bit, with the hope of coming out even for a hobby I love. That's it, nothing more to add to this, just surprised folk here are so negatively vocal about what other folk choose to ask for their knives.

Take care.
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Buying a knife then reselling it at an inflated price after you put your grubby hands all over it isn’t collecting, it’s called scalping or flipping.

By the bye, best of luck on your 4th FK2 sale. :rolleyes:

Pip pip, cheerio, toodeloo or whatever the hell you Astley Lovers say.
 
that's Capitalism!

I know it's been discussed, but I don't fully understand why it's a problem that people buy knives and resell them for a profit.

I mean, I get it when it comes to lotteries and at shows and stuff, especially when it's done at a guys' table immediately after purchase- it's like rubbing the maker's nose in the pile of profit the lottery winner just made. Do you see that as being the same in this case?

Folks who do their legwork and involve themselves in the process of buying a knife directly from CPK get the privilege of paying the absolute minimum for the knives, and those who lack the savvy or work ethic to get in on the scene here are going to pay a premium because someone else did the work of sourcing the knife for them.

To my way of thinking, the inflated prices being realized by people who flip these knives increase the aftermarket and general value of these products for everyone, am I totally wrong?
 
Lorien said:
that's Capitalism!

I know it's been discussed, but I don't fully understand why it's a problem that people buy knives and resell them for a profit.

I mean, I get it when it comes to lotteries and at shows and stuff, especially when it's done at a guys' table immediately after purchase- it's like rubbing the maker's nose in the pile of profit the lottery winner just made. Do you see that as being the same in this case?

Folks who do their legwork and involve themselves in the process of buying a knife directly from CPK get the privilege of paying the absolute minimum for the knives, and those who lack the savvy or work ethic to get in on the scene here are going to pay a premium because someone else did the work of sourcing the knife for them.

To my way of thinking, the inflated prices being realized by people who flip these knives increase the aftermarket and general value of these products for everyone, am I totally wrong?
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You’re correct, that’s capitalism. Every point you make is valid, and I’m actually a big proponent of free markets myself. That being said, I do have an issue with folks buying CPK knives directly through Friday sales threads with the intent of flipping them for profit. I’ve heard it proclaimed & espoused in this subforum, by members & mods alike (and you as well, if I’m not mistaken..and if I am, please pardon me) that CPK knives are tools, and are intended to be USED for REAL WORK and outdoor activity. Being someone who uses my knives for work & leisure, I can say that someone ‘flipping’ new and sought after CPK models is, to me, shitting all over the entire notion that CPK knives are made for ‘the working man’, and instead reinforcing the idea that they are trinkets and fancy doo-dads for collectors. Let’s take the FK2s as an example. There are people that are still pining for one, who’d actually use it, that weren’t able to get one from a Friday sale, maybe because a ‘flipper’ took a spot. The idea that someone should have to pay a premium to buy a ‘working knife’ from a 3rd party because he was actually working is very counterintuitive. I’ve had to pay up for CPKs I wanted to use because I’ve been unable to get a spot in a sale thread where I noticed a couple ‘flippers’ secure a knife. Paying extra to a flipper after the fact feels a lot like punishment for not being able to camp out on a computer while at work. Still, what you say is true. These are the markets of our own design, so I don’t complain (until now, I guess). You also mention the practice driving up values for all of us. To me, that’s not necessarily a good thing, as driving prices up does not allow me to acquire the CPKs I’m still eager to try any more easily, and in fact, encourages people to NOT use the knives they already have, for fear of diminishing value. As such, it’s encouraging collecting & hoarding behavior. Not that there’s anything at all wrong with that. I just didn’t think that’s what CPK was about. Best of luck to the flippers, but I’ll continue to resell my CPKs at reasonable prices, both to allow others who otherwise wouldn’t have the chance to get their hands on what they need, and to help keep the secondary market behaving rationally.
 
Not that I think Lorien's first sentence, "that's Capitalism" was meant as a blanket statement but distinctions must be born in mind about unruly profiteering and some measured "profits" for lack of a better word to justify one's costs, both tangible and intangible.

This CPK sub is a great place to dwell in but sometimes this ugly subject rears its ugly head; some folks are more passionate than others about the subject and who am I to tell folks what to be passionate about or to be nonchalant about. Personally speaking with the exception of some very rare cases, some of which Lorien had mentioned in his post above, I remain "meh" about someone adding a few percentages on top of their offerings. I have done it myself if I've posted something for sale on here and the "businessman" in me is not in the habit of losing money, even though a $50+/- factor either way will not have an iota of difference in my financial situation.

Regarding CPK and their foot print on BF.com specifically:

I think that almost all of the folks on here (I put that percentage as high as 98%!) do not show up for Fridays sales to profit. The first couple of bellwether sales have always been a clamoring mad-dash / stampede but things slow down when Nathan offers 200-300 units within a few months. Major Kudos to both Nathan & Jo for doing this for us at the expense of accepting much more headaches that a growing business brings about in its wake. As far as I am concerned, if folks show up or request for proxies and do not offer a "finders fee" or other generally bad habits, CPKs get sold and paid for in an orderly manner meaning that Nathan will not have to hold left-over units for his shelves, I term that result a major success. Nathan, since I know that you read everything even though you rarely comment, I would recommend to you that you NEVER produce way too many knives (as high as 1000) if your largest marketing audience is BF.com. Brother, you will eventually lose money so screw this lot in here, just make enough and then plus some for this motley crew to get their fix and then let us STFU like the petulant infants whom we are :D

People who bring up eBay: please don't use that as reference material on here! I have vaster experience than most of you here (selling other unrelated sh*t there) and have had a foot print on the Bay since 2001. There are more risks factors involved with selling there that really don't apply in here. Yes one will most likely get more proceed$ but there's always that 10% or so selling fee in addition to PP (same as here) plus the much higher likelihood of lo$ing once in a blue moon to a fraudulent buyer, odds of which are a lot higher than here. A very bad apple will get named & shamed here on GBU and will probably end up walking the proverbial plank for scamming but on the Bay, you can't even leave anyone a negative feedback for being a shyster!

TL; DR version: Matty no likey when this place takes a circular firing posture! Have a great Memorial Monday Y'all :)
 
It seems that the jello material inside Matty's noggin has not dumped all its thoughts so brace yourselves for some more, you've been warned :D

Secondary market POV as a "collector":

There are always products from a certain maker which the items lineage can be traced back to much easier days when their workshop was a mom & pop operation and in some collectors' eyes, there is an added value there just because of the history in addition to allowing for increases in value due to inflation. History in some cases with a successful and sought after operation fetches inordinate value added that only the zealot collectors understand and can justify. This will never make sense to someone who wishes to get their hands on the latest and the greatest rolling off the maker's production line!

There are some Carothers Knives (pre-CPK) which can be traced back to Nathan and Jo, full stop! Maybe the steels were not optimized back then or the methodology was not dialed in as efficiently as it is today, but in some minds that adds intangible value because of history and rarity. Is it rationale that an original Porsche 911 which rolled off the assembly line in early 1963, a car which to me looks like an inverted old cast iron bathtub on wheels, should fetch almost a cool million $ fully restored in today's money vs a brand new regular 911 with the most modern amenities / technological advances which will cost a "mere" $100K-ish today? To some collectors it does absolutely matter if Dr. Ferdinand Porsche's finger prints were in the original DNA as opposed to today's product.

Most will raise their eyebrows today if a modern CPK goes for about the $ame or in some cases, far less than its much older Carothers' siblings. Your new UFK will probably devour your buck kill, with much more ease cutting it and chopping it into smaller pieces from limb-to-limb, but IMO it will never have that "cool factor" as Nathan's D2 Skinner :)
 
Casinostocks said:
It seems that the jello material inside Matty's noggin has not dumped all its thoughts so brace yourselves for some more, you've been warned :D

Secondary market POV as a "collector":

There are always products from a certain maker which the items lineage can be traced back to much easier days when their workshop was a mom & pop operation and in some collectors' eyes, there is an added value there just because of the history in addition to allowing for increases in value due to inflation. History in some cases with a successful and sought after operation fetches inordinate value added that only the zealot collectors understand and can justify. This will never make sense to someone who wishes to get their hands on the latest and the greatest rolling off the maker's production line!

There are some Carothers Knives (pre-CPK) which can be traced back to Nathan and Jo, full stop! Maybe the steels were not optimized back then or the methodology was not dialed in as efficiently as it is today, but in some minds that adds intangible value because of history and rarity. Is it rationale that an original Porsche 911 which rolled off the assembly line in early 1963, a car which to me looks like an inverted old cast iron bathtub on wheels, should fetch almost a cool million $ fully restored in today's money vs a brand new regular 911 with the most modern amenities / technological advances which will cost a "mere" $100K-ish today? To some collectors it does absolutely matter if Dr. Ferdinand Porsche's finger prints were in the original DNA as opposed to today's product.

Most will raise their eyebrows today if a modern CPK goes for about the $ame or in some cases, far less than its much older Carothers' siblings. Your new UFK will probably devour your buck kill, with much more ease cutting it and chopping it into smaller pieces from limb-to-limb, but IMO it will never have that "cool factor" as Nathan's D2 Skinner :)
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Unc Matty! As always, your points are well made, and entirely spot on, but I think you’ve ran off topic on this one brother. Correct me if I’m wrong, but we’re talking about people buying and immediately reselling CURRENT production models for the express purpose of profiting from another member, not the valuation of rare/collectible historical artifacts. Enjoy this Memorial Day :)

“They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them”
-Laurence Binyon
 
I “liked” every post in this little back and forth because they are all valid opinions.
That’s all they are though.
Mr. Happy hasn’t done anything wrong. His bay price might have been somewhat inflated, which is why it didn’t sell. I don’t see anything wrong with testing the waters of the bay. Most of us were watching that listing out of the same curiosity that led him to list it as such. Admittedly, I didn’t think it would sell for that much even in that market.

I’m with Fullflat when I sell things on BF. I keep the price down to what I paid for it or less. Typically, I lose a little money because I am attempting to get the knife into the hands of somebody that I think will use or cherish it. That’s not always the case. I sold a limited edition knife on here. I watched the buyer sell it a month or two later at a substantial mark up. It sold quickly. No big deal. I knew I could sell it for more when I listed it. I got what I wanted out of it. You could easily argue I’m a poor businessman. I would back up your claim. That’s just not what I’m about.
I don’t expect others to be poor businessmen just because I choose to be.
 
Odog27 said:
I “liked” every post in this little back and forth because they are all valid opinions.
That’s all they are though.
Mr. Happy hasn’t done anything wrong. His bay price might have been somewhat inflated, which is why it didn’t sell. I don’t see anything wrong with testing the waters of the bay. Most of us were watching that listing out of the same curiosity that led him to list it as such. Admittedly, I didn’t think it would sell for that much even in that market.

I’m with Fullflat when I sell things on BF. I keep the price down to what I paid for it or less. Typically, I lose a little money because I am attempting to get the knife into the hands of somebody that I think will use or cherish it. That’s not always the case. I sold a limited edition knife on here. I watched the buyer sell it a month or two later at a substantial mark up. It sold quickly. No big deal. I knew I could sell it for more when I listed it. I got what I wanted out of it. You could easily argue I’m a poor businessman. I would back up your claim. That’s just not what I’m about.
I don’t expect others to be poor businessmen just because I choose to be.
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You’re the man Odoggie! You have the coolest demeanor & perspective IMO
 
Fullflat said:
You’re correct, that’s capitalism. Every point you make is valid, and I’m actually a big proponent of free markets myself. That being said, I do have an issue with folks buying CPK knives directly through Friday sales threads with the intent of flipping them for profit. I’ve heard it proclaimed & espoused in this subforum, by members & mods alike (and you as well, if I’m not mistaken..and if I am, please pardon me) that CPK knives are tools, and are intended to be USED for REAL WORK and outdoor activity. Being someone who uses my knives for work & leisure, I can say that someone ‘flipping’ new and sought after CPK models is, to me, shitting all over the entire notion that CPK knives are made for ‘the working man’, and instead reinforcing the idea that they are trinkets and fancy doo-dads for collectors. Let’s take the FK2s as an example. There are people that are still pining for one, who’d actually use it, that weren’t able to get one from a Friday sale, maybe because a ‘flipper’ took a spot. The idea that someone should have to pay a premium to buy a ‘working knife’ from a 3rd party because he was actually working is very counterintuitive. I’ve had to pay up for CPKs I wanted to use because I’ve been unable to get a spot in a sale thread where I noticed a couple ‘flippers’ secure a knife. Paying extra to a flipper after the fact feels a lot like punishment for not being able to camp out on a computer while at work. Still, what you say is true. These are the markets of our own design, so I don’t complain (until now, I guess). You also mention the practice driving up values for all of us. To me, that’s not necessarily a good thing, as driving prices up does not allow me to acquire the CPKs I’m still eager to try any more easily, and in fact, encourages people to NOT use the knives they already have, for fear of diminishing value. As such, it’s encouraging collecting & hoarding behavior. Not that there’s anything at all wrong with that. I just didn’t think that’s what CPK was about. Best of luck to the flippers, but I’ll continue to resell my CPKs at reasonable prices, both to allow others who otherwise wouldn’t have the chance to get their hands on what they need, and to help keep the secondary market behaving rationally.
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I guess a free market is the option to make choices, but I personally side with your post.

As you stated, Nate has stated that his primary targeted market has always been users. The first sales of the FK2 showed that there was ridiculous demand for them, hence why, after getting lucky on the 2nd sale, I chose to hold off on acquiring a 2nd to gift to a buddy of mine, until the sales slowed down to indicate that most folks trying for their first, had managed to get one.

Then there are the folks vying for one of these coveted spots just to flip them for profit because of the demand.

BTW, I vaguely recall the discussion from a while back, but wasn't there some mention of disgruntlement from a person who'd proxied for one of these FK2s? That would definitely chap my ass: dozens of people (potentially ones who want their first CPK to own and use) vying for one of the few initial coveted spots, and someone asking for a proxy-for-profit? Getting some helpful soul to do the dirty work.

I recall it simply because more than one member mentioned reconsidering proxying for other folks, which is both saddening and maddening. The CPK subforum, by and large, is populated by some very thoughtful enthusiasts. Many of them offer to proxy, simply to help someone else acquire a CPK, who (due to work or other reasons) might not have the ability (or a chance) at the sales. That the practices of a few have made them reconsider this position, is a detriment to the community.
 
Fullflat said:
Unc Matty! As always, your points are well made, and entirely spot on, but I think you’ve ran off topic on this one brother. Correct me if I’m wrong, but we’re talking about people buying and immediately reselling CURRENT production models for the express purpose of profiting from another member, not the valuation of rare/collectible historical artifacts. Enjoy this Memorial Day :)

“They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them”
-Laurence Binyon
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Seth, that point was not lost on me. To me CPK is a bonafide going concern, in business to make a profit to continue producing products, to pay its expenses and to employ a couple or few people. To me, this is much more important because in their great endeavors they also happen to offer products which I luv and I am proud to own and dare I say collect although some people may not consider most CPKs with their field grade finish as collectibles but to those people: beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)

The notion is not really about being a good or bad businessman! I support CPK as I have already stated with love and affection but I use PP and USPS begrudgingly as methods to do business. Therefore by and large if I grow tired of something and when I offer on the Exchange although the quoted price is the final price, the cost of doing business shall be baked in for mist parts in that price. I’m not in the habit of losing $ to PP & to USPS. Shrugs!
 
Casinostocks said:
Seth, that point was not lost on me. To me CPK is a bonafide going concern, in business to make a profit to continue producing products, to pay its expenses and to employ a couple or few people. To me, this is much more important because in their great endeavors they also happen to offer products which I luv and I am proud to own and dare I say collect although some people may not consider most CPKs with their field grade finish as collectibles but to those people: beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)

The notion is not really about being a good or bad businessman! I support CPK as I have already stated with love and affection but I use PP and USPS begrudgingly as methods to do business. Therefore by and large if I grow tired of something and when I offer on the Exchange although the quoted price is the final price, the cost of doing business shall be baked in for mist parts in that price. I’m not in the habit of losing $ to PP & to USPS. Shrugs!
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When you buy a CPK, you’re not buying it with the intent of turning it around immediately and profiting off of it, are you? You’re hoping to admire it and evaluate if it’d be a good fit for your collection. To that end, your not a flipper. I wouldn’t consider baking in fees & shipping profiteering either. Then again, last I checked, shipping & PP fees don’t amount to $100 additional on a FK2 stateside, as some people’s pricing would have you believe. Facepalm
 
Fullflat said:
When you buy a CPK, you’re not buying it with the intent of turning it around immediately and profiting off of it, are you? You’re hoping to admire it and evaluate if it’d be a good fit for your collection. To that end, your not a flipper. I wouldn’t consider baking in fees & shipping profiteering either. Then again, last I checked, shipping & PP fees don’t amount to $100 additional on a FK2 stateside, as some people’s pricing would have you believe. Facepalm
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$100? Oh lord no! Not here in our little benevolent community of ubiquitous hippie luv :D
 
Fullflat said:
All I’m sayin is a few members’ conduct pertaining to sales of new product are making the whole CPK sub look more like a MLM (multi-level marketing scheme) than a manufacturer of knives, and it’s not a good look
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Yep.

That was another point I'd considered and mentioned, in a discussion some months back about the proxying.

Regular CPK'ers understand that many of the folks proxying are simply doing it because they can, for those who can't.

From the outside, looking in though (eg. Folks new to CPK and looking to acquire their first CPK), it can appear like an in-group with superior connections or internet skills, routinely nailing the top spots to pass along to their buddies/other folks in the in-crowd. An impression that could potentially mar CPK's image.

If a newb sees a proxy-for-profit flip on something they missed out on, that would look even worse (eg. "Yeah, we pass along the goodies to our peeps. If one of us doesn't want it, you newbs get the special price")
 
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