Ranger T-series +P+ 9mm ammunition

WoodenChicken said:
The 2 main reasons FBI switched from 9mm to .40 caliber:

1. If a big, drug-crazed perp is coming at you with a gun in his hand, you could hit him with 9mm's and he could still get a shot off at you. With .40, that shouldn't happen. The .40 should drop him on the spot, backwards not allowing a shot.

2. .40 caliber can shoot through cars.
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WoodenChicken said:
Alternatively, you could switch to a .40 caliber if you are looking for more "potency". Some companies offer drop-in barrels for modification to a different caliber, but not sure about 9mm. to 40.

The 2 main reasons FBI switched from 9mm to .40 caliber:

1. If a big, drug-crazed perp is coming at you with a gun in his hand, you could hit him with 9mm's and he could still get a shot off at you. With .40, that shouldn't happen. The .40 should drop him on the spot, backwards not allowing a shot.

2. .40 caliber can shoot through cars.

Not trying to start yet another .40 versus 9 mm debate, but someone mentioned FBI, and those are couple of reasons why bureau switched over.

Personally I like both rounds.
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Hmmm, I thought they switched to 40 caliber because many agents couldn't handle the 10mm.
 
WoodenChicken said:
The .40 should drop him on the spot, backwards not allowing a shot.
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No handgun is capable of doing that reliably and certainly not .40. The only edge the .40 has to 9mm is barrier penetration IMO. As far as ammo goes I never really got into the +p's. Never understood why you'd want to unless you're stuck with a round like the military or leo. If you want more power just get a .45 and be done with it. For the 9mm, my favorite ammo is Gold Dot 147 grainers.
 
it seems everyone has a bit or piece of the story so i'll at my $.08
Dr. gary roberts, a surgeon and specialist for the FBI has done a load of testing on ballistics and wound channels etc etc.
as per my first post, his conclusions are that 115g (9mm) will not consistently expand through clothing and then the FBI minimum standard of 12" of flesh. thus it is considered unacceptable as a carry weight for 9mm.
i am by no means a ballistics expert and my own testing has been very limited but i'll trust a FBI doc before jo shmo on the internet.
http://http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
on another note, the FBI switched from .38spl and .357 to 10mm after the miami shootout. most agents couldnt handle/qualify with 10mm so they adopted .40sw.

ETA: hotlink is being dumb.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
 
Shotgun said:
Yes, the .40 is a cut down 10mm basically. Why they just didn't go with the .45 is beyond me.
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It was the age of the "wonder 9". The 15+ capacity hit the American gun world like a hurricane. That old .45 was tired and only held 7-8 rounds. Pfft, with a 9mm, they could double the firepower.*




*speculation on the thought process back then...
 
Okay, I guess my post did sound kind of goofy, but that's basically what I was told by a friend who has been in FBI as special agent for almost 20 years. Working undercover etc., so I assume he knows something about it :o
 
a friend who has been in FBI as special agent for almost 20 years. Working undercover etc.
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Riiiiiiiiight. We've all listened to those guys too. Try not to laugh and see how long you can keep him talking.... :cool:
 
mete said:
The one that expands after penetrating a car door is Corbon DPX , others won't do it !
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I believe that any bonded (iirc it has something to do with electrical current as part of the jacketing process) JHP is designed to penetrate barriers before expanding in soft tissue. Those that I've shot are from Federal.

But... I am so far from an expert that you should take that with a big ol salt lick unless someone more knowledgeable confirms.
 
WoodenChicken said:
Okay, I guess my post did sound kind of goofy, but that's basically what I was told by a friend who has been in FBI as special agent for almost 20 years. Working undercover etc., so I assume he knows something about it :o
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I met a guy who wasn't actually part of a SEAL team, but they took him off the ship a few times to help out with sooper-sekret mishuns that were so sekret that all the medals they gave him are sooper-sekret medals that he isn't allowed to wear on his uniform . . . because it is a sekret . . . and if you saw the sekret medals and asked him "whut dat for?" he might tell you . . . but then he'd have to snap yer neck, because you'd know the sekret too . . . and he can't have you telling other people about the sooper-sekret SEAL mishuns he done while he was pretending to be a diesel mechanic. He was employed sweeping floors when I met him, and didn't last long . . . I think the fact that he was stealing cases of soda had sumpthin to do with it. But they wuz sekret sodas. :cool:
 
Cougar Allen said:
Riiiiiiiiight. We've all listened to those guys too. Try not to laugh and see how long you can keep him talking.... :cool:
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I know it must be hard for you to believe that people actually work in such jobs. BTW, constant sarcasm is not a very impressive trait. But this is the internet, I forgot.
 
tyr_shadowblade said:
I met a guy who wasn't actually part of a SEAL team, but they took him off the ship a few times to help out with sooper-sekret mishuns that were so sekret that all the medals they gave him are sooper-sekret medals that he isn't allowed to wear on his uniform . . . because it is a sekret . . . and if you saw the sekret medals and asked him "whut dat for?" he might tell you . . . but then he'd have to snap yer neck, because you'd know the sekret too . . . and he can't have you telling other people about the sooper-sekret SEAL mishuns he done while he was pretending to be a diesel mechanic. He was employed sweeping floors when I met him, and didn't last long . . . I think the fact that he was stealing cases of soda had sumpthin to do with it. But they wuz sekret sodas. :cool:
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You have just waited several minutes of everyone's time with this mundane post. Besides not being remotely funny, it bordered on pathetic. Since writing is not your strong suit, maybe you should get back to work?

And may you find the Dharma......then you wont be here......
 
WoodenChicken said:
I know it must be hard for you to believe that people actually work in such jobs. BTW, constant sarcasm is not a very impressive trait. But this is the internet, I forgot.
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In fact some people do, and some of them are reading this thread and laughing their butts off..... If it were some law enforcement agencies, well, some 20-year LEOs really are that ignorant about guns. But he claimed to be an FBI Special Agent. Whatever else you can say about the FBI (and you can say plenty), you can't say their Special Agents are afflicted with that kind of nonsense. Of course we're hearing it second-hand and it's possible you distorted what he actually said, but I doubt you could distort it that much.
 
tyr_shadowblade said:
I met a guy who wasn't actually part of a SEAL team, but they took him off the ship a few times to help out with sooper-sekret mishuns that were so sekret that all the medals they gave him are sooper-sekret medals that he isn't allowed to wear on his uniform . . . because it is a sekret . . . and if you saw the sekret medals and asked him "whut dat for?" he might tell you . . . but then he'd have to snap yer neck, because you'd know the sekret too . . . and he can't have you telling other people about the sooper-sekret SEAL mishuns he done while he was pretending to be a diesel mechanic. He was employed sweeping floors when I met him, and didn't last long . . . I think the fact that he was stealing cases of soda had sumpthin to do with it. But they wuz sekret sodas. :cool:
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LMMFAO!!! :thumbup:
 
Cougar Allen said:
In fact some people do, and some of them are reading this thread and laughing their butts off..... If it were some law enforcement agencies, well, some 20-year LEOs really are that ignorant about guns. But he claimed to be an FBI Special Agent. Whatever else you can say about the FBI (and you can say plenty), you can't say their Special Agents are afflicted with that kind of nonsense. Of course we're hearing it second-hand and it's possible you distorted what he actually said, but I doubt you could distort it that much.
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I have known him since we were 12 years old, he IS a special agent for the FBI. Plain and simple. Whether you or anyone else believes it, doesn't matter. That's basically what he told me about the move to .40 caliber, if you disagree that's fine.
But one thing is definite: he is a special agent for the FBI, and you ain't. So, I will take his word for these things over yours.
Over and out.:D
 
WoodenChicken said:
I have known him since we were 12 years old, he IS a special agent for the FBI. Plain and simple. Whether you or anyone else believes it, doesn't matter. That's basically what he told me about the move to .40 caliber, if you disagree that's fine.
But one thing is definite: he is a special agent for the FBI, and you ain't. So, I will take his word for these things over yours.
Over and out.:D
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You are of course free to take his word but that doesn't change the fact that he is apparently repeating the same tired old refrain (with a little dash of spice thrown in) that many less informed individuals have repeated for years. What you were told about 9mm, at least JHP 9mm, hasn't been true since the late 80s to early 90s though, I believe, it does have something to do with why the FBI made the switch to 10mm back in the day before the advent of more powerful and better expanding 9mm rounds. And as for .40 being able to shoot through cars whereas he is, apparently, claiming that 9mm can not, all I have to say is, ummm.... duurrrr. That's one of the silliest firearm related stories I've ever heard.
 
WoodenChicken said:
I have known him since we were 12 years old, he IS a special agent for the FBI. Plain and simple. Whether you or anyone else believes it, doesn't matter. That's basically what he told me about the move to .40 caliber, if you disagree that's fine.
But one thing is definite: he is a special agent for the FBI, and you ain't. So, I will take his word for these things over yours.
Over and out.:D
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I recall a conversation amongst several longtime gun collectors, all of whom CCWed handguns, and the discussion turned to "stopping power."

"The .45 ACP is the best caliber for a pistol," one of them stated. "It is so powerful, that if you so much as shoot a guy in the finger he'll go down."

I expected everyone to start laughing at such a profoundly ignorant statement, but instead they all nodded their heads as if he'd stated a Great Truth. But if you shoot someone in the finger with a 45, you know what happens? Their finger pops off. Then they hold up their hand and say, "Whut?" and the next thing you know they've got a little fountain messing all over the carpet. People say lots of stoopid stuff, then other people hear it, and believe it unquestioningly, then repeat it to others. This makes the world dumber.
 
tyr_shadowblade said:
the carpet. People say lots of stoopid stuff, then other people hear it, and believe it unquestioningly, then repeat it to others. This makes the world dumber.
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Exactly!

Here's a fact about handguns. There is no handgun round that will knock a man off his feet. None. There just isn't enough momentum to do that. It's simple physics. There is no handgun round that will stop a man 100% of the time.

In the early days of 9mm use in law enforcement, the hollow points tended to get plugged passing through clothing. Most modern bullets do not have that problem. There are numerous tests by various agencies that prove that.

Here is a link to a long article explaining +p and +P+. It also has tables at the bottom.

http://www.glockworld.com/content.aspx?Ckey=gwa_9mm

The main reason that the .40 S&W became popular is that many people find the grip on a high capacity .45 to big.


I have been a gun nut since I was about 10 and have worked in the gun business for the last 15 years. The "stuff" I hear from "experts" is amazing.


Here's what I found out. Most LEOs including the FBI are not really interested in guns. It's just a tool for their job. From talking to Sheriffs, firearms instructors and armorers, I learned that a firearm for LEOs should be as foolproof as possible with nothing that can be turned, poked or adjusted. I'm not denigrating LEOs. It's just a fact of life.
 
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Shotgun said:
Yes, the .40 is a cut down 10mm basically. Why they just didn't go with the .45 is beyond me.
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imho they dont because .40 pistols are a bit smaller, they hold more ammo, and some smaller folks seem to shoot it better vs .45ACP, also the difference in performance between the 2 (with good ammo) is miniscule.
 
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