Rank Your Steels!

a) There are really bad alloys for knives. 301 stainless and 400C would be good examples. Both are used in knives and I doubt anyone can name a knife use application where those would be a good or even reasonable choice over other popular knife alloys.
Or for a change, name the knife use application where 440C or AUS-8A is "the best" choice.
In other words, we have bad alloys, mediocre performers and very good performers. All for a given application.
So, OP can be easily interpreted.

Rob_Angerer said:
[*]Also, the quality of heat treat is paramount. Whether it be the high austenizing temperatures required for certain steels, to the tempering temps and cycles, to cryogenic treatment... or differential tempering possible for the simpler carbon steels... This is a huge topic all unto itself.
[*]Hardness, abrasive edge holding wear resistance (and difficulty to sharpen), toughness vs brittleness, stain resistance, heat treat and grain structure, and price... all of these are parameters that should be understood in making a steel choice.
[*]Knife blade grind, spine thickness, edge type / profile / angle, flat vs. hollow grind, ... all have a significant influence on performance, which again has different answers depending on intended use.
[*]Stock removal vs. forgeable is another area.
[*]Learning to sharpen what you own is a good skill. Diamond stones and a jig help a lot. Not overheating if you choose to use a machine (belt sander, or motor driven wheel) is a good thing to know about... you can overheat and ruin the hardness (soften) a knife tip in an instant. A change of color is a good clue.
[/LIST]
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That was a nice recap of the knife steel FAQ :) However, your requirements pretty much equal masters degree in metallurgy or higher and considerable knife making experience. 99% of us have neither, but still have favorites.

Rob_Angerer said:
The forums are full of opinions, misinformation, hype, and general chaff.
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Oh no :) Public forum is full of opinions!!! There is certain amount of incorrect info on any public forum and hype, no other way around it, but "full" is a little bit harsh.

Rob_Angerer said:
Separating wheat from chaff takes time and lots of reading. If that sounds cynical, see my autosignature, and keep reading the forums... a few years helps.
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I see you do follow your own advise, registered in 2008, 77 posts ATM. So, that was your 2 years digest?
BTW, what's so significant about your sig? We've seen the Matrix long ago and the statement that you are propessionally skeptical for living (if you are proffesional, let's be skeptical about your words) doesn't mean anything, at least in the context of why we can't pick favorite steels, or why there are no bad ones.

Rob_Angerer said:
I'll avoid comments about naivete, rankings, and magic properties attributed to forged 52100 or damascus... (oops, I typed it...)
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After all you said, why stop now... Don't be too modest ;)
 
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It depends on the knife really. My Junglas is a wood eating machine with Rowen 1095. Same with my EDC Izula. Busse INFI ain't bad either.

Folders:

Duratec 20CV
CTS-XHP
CPM154
D2
S30V (only if sharpened by the mfg. or it drops to the bottom)

In no particular order since I can sharpen them easily

VG10
VG1
AUS8
 
I'm with knarfeng but steels most see action in my use:

Folder's: S30V, VG-10, M4, CPM-154, 154CM, D2, Buck 420 HC, Victorinox steel and Case CV and 1095

Fixed blade: INFI, 1095, A2 whatever carbon steel traditional puukko maker's use in here (High Carbon from Laurin Metalli).
 
Gator97 said:
I see you do follow your own advise, registered in 2008, 77 posts ATM. So, that was your 2 years digest?
BTW, what's so significant about your sig? We've seen the Matrix long ago and the statement that you are propessionally skeptical for living (if you are proffesional, let's be skeptical about your words) doesn't mean anything, at least in the context of why we can't pick favorite steels, or why there are no bad ones.

After all you said, why stop now... Don't be too modest ;)
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I joined BF in May of 2000. I had to change my username from "rdangerer" to the current one when I changed email addresses and the forum software had some glitches that couldn't handle that switch. I had 1,977 posts under that username, whatever that's worth (quantity vs quality, etc). Do a search on that username if you wish.

I've been buying and using knives (seriously) since about 1995. Well, actually have been using knives, machetes, and axes since I was a cub scout onward through attaining Eagle Scout.

I'm an engineer by training, have worked as an instrumentation and control system engineer for 24 years... so I come at things from an engineering perspective... and I get paid to troubleshoot problems that others already took a shot at but couldn't finish. I get paid to review other engineer's and designer's work to see where they got it wrong so we can get it right, ultimately. I get paid to help my company manage cost vs. risk vs. safety. So I am "professionally skeptical" that things are done, and done correctly, until I learn enough to understand and evaluate. If I get it wrong, I admit it just as soon as evidence presents otherwise, and I try to get it right in the long run, ego comfortably suppressed for the ride.

My autosignature is just something mildly amusing to put down there at the bottom, along side my real name as my user name. The Matrix thing has no significance... I'll probably change it at some point so something else, just for grins. Just thought it was an amusing line in the movie.

Gator97, If you are trying to pick a fight, please don't bother. I've been around the various forums long enough to know that's just embarrasing for those that do.

The point is threefold:
  • Asking "what are your favorite steels" is kind of pointless unless you also specify the knife's intended application space.
  • Even the best supersteel can be bungled by those who don't care enough to have a quality control approach to their heat treating, and/or don't know enough about heat treat to get it right for a given steel... whether company, or individual knife maker.
  • Many steels get hyped. It's fun. It sells knives... allows some to sell ugly knives for a really high price, which is a good gig if you can get it! Example: There is no magic in 52100. It's a simple steel that makes a good blade in the hands of someone who knows how to... wait for it ... get the heat treat done well to achieve a fine grain structure at an appropriate hardness for the application. One composition chart has 52100 as: Chemical composition in weight %: 1.06% C, 0.33% Mn, 0.32% Si, 1.44% Cr. That is very simple compared with the newest super steels.
 
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shunsui said:
(CarbonV) The steel with the most names ? Also known as 50100-B, 1095CV, and I think Case had a marketing name for it too.
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Ah... 1095CV ... that's a new one on me.

Agreed... 50100-B is the other designation I've seen for what amounts to, compositionally, 0170-6. Different mills, different minor compositions, same basic stuff.

Still amusing that Cold Steel touts Carbon V with this cloak of mystery... like it's something really special. It's just a decent carbon steel ... if ... wait for it... heat treated properly for the intended application.
 
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Phil Gibbs had this to say about the steel used by Camillus for the Carbon V knives: I hope this isn't inappropriate, posting his words instead of a link. If it is, I'll gladly remove it.
Phil Gibbs's Avatar
Phil Gibbs Phil Gibbs is offline
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Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Rogers, AR ,U.S.A.
Posts: 716
Becker Steel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyon View Post
Bingo. 0170-6C or Carbon V. I'm not sure which nomenclature came first, but it's six one way, half-a-dozen the other.

I've got it in a buttload of Beckers, a Cold Steel Master Hunter, and (I think) a Camillus-made MooreMaker stockman. It's good steel with a good heat treat regardless of what you call it.
Carbon V definately came first. It was the brainchild of the Metal God, Dan Maragni, & was, in my opinion, what put Cold Steel on the map all those years ago.

When Cold Steel came to Camillus to make their carbon steel knives, they did not want to pay for the vast amount of steel that had to be purchased in order to have a custom steel made to their specifications.
Consequently Cold Steel agreed that Camillus could also use the steel (& pay them a royalty, I believe) but could not call it Carbon V.

I came up with the name 0170-6C, based on an almost close (but NOT) steel produced by Sharron Steel called 0170-6.

All this is historical trivia.

The real issue for those who understand is Heat Treatment!

The reason that the Camillus Beckers perform so well is that Dan Maragni set up a system of heat treatment at Camillus for the Cold Steel knives, & oversaw almost every batch of knives produced. What we learnt about heat treating Cold Steel seeped over to the Becker knives.
All that is now lost forever!

In my humble opinion, the values of the Camillus Beckers may not rise significantly in the collector market, but for those interested in a high performance user, get them while you can. Without Maragni's methods, I don't care what a future maker of Beckers uses, they will just be well designed carbon steel knives covered in powder coat!

I dearly hope I am wrong & the new maker will consider trying to improve their methods. Time will tell..............
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1095CV is used by Kabar, not Camillus/Cold Steel. Maragni also posted on the history of the steel. It's interesting how long the rumor of Carbon V being a number of different steels managed to hang around.
 
Mastiff... interesting post! Cool. Thanks for digging that one up.

Here is a link that shows some info on 50100-B. It shows composition to be: C= 0.95%, Cr= 0.45%, Cu=0.46%, Mn=0.40, Ni=0.03, Si=0.46, V=0.19
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/0170-6c.shtml

Joe Talmadge was a guy who was low on nonsense and high on rationality, IMHO. Here is an excerpt from his compendiums:
http://www.sff.net/people/pff/steel.txt

Carbon V
Carbon V is a trademarked term by Cold Steel, and as such is not
necessarily one particular kind of steel; rather, it describes
whatever steel Cold Steel happens to be using, and there is an
indication they do change steels from time to time. Carbon V performs
roughly between 1095-ish and O-1-ish, in my opinion, and rusts like
O-1 as well. I've heard rumors that Carbon V is O-1 (which I now
think is unlikely) or 1095. Numerous industry insiders
insist it is 0170-6. Some spark tests done by a rec.knives reader
seem to point the finger at 50100-B. Since 50100-B and 0170-6 are the
same steel (see below), this is likely the current Carbon V.

0170-6 - 50100-B
These are different designations for the same steel: 0170-6 is the
steel makers classification, 50100-B is the AISI designation. A good
chrome-vanadium steel that is somewhat similar to O-1, but much less
expensive. The now-defunct Blackjack made several knives from O170-6,
and Carbon V may be 0170-6. 50100 is basically 52100 with about 1/3
the chromium of 52100, and the B in 50100-B indicates that the steel
has been modified with vanadium, making this a chrome-vanadium steel.
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"Phil Gibbs: I came up with the name 0170-6C, based on an almost close (but NOT) steel produced by Sharron Steel called 0170-6."

The plot thickens. ;)

edit: Ok, found that post by Gibbs that Mastiff quoted:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4301656#post4301656

Check out post #42 also.

I'm kinda curious what the actual difference is between 0170-6, 0170-6C, and 0170-6M (M? Yet another 0170-6 reference from another Forum). Is it a significant difference in chemical composition or is it just a heat treat like SR101/52100 ? I guess if they told us they'd have to kill us. ;)
 
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Gator97 said:
a) There are really bad alloys for knives. 301 stainless and 400C would be good examples. Both are used in knives and I doubt anyone can name a knife use application where those would be a good or even reasonable choice over other popular knife alloys.
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I'm a steel snob, self admitted, and would agree that these are extremely low end steels suitable for... well... a $5 knife from China. Which will be a POS.

Gator97 said:
Or for a change, name the knife use application where 440C or AUS-8A is "the best" choice.
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The "best choice"? Or an appropriate choice... For lower cost folders, and there is a big place in the market for folders that have a low cost of admission (just ask Gerber and Buck, who sell millions), 440C is a good choice for an inexpensive knife that can be hardened to Rc58 (and hardness counts for a lot in an inexpensive knife) and where very good corrosion resistance is desired (~18% chrome). You'd have to spend more to get a Talonite/Stellite (not a steel, but a Cobalt-Chromium alloy) blade or the H-series stuff to significantly improve on corrosion resisance (e.g. salt water knife). In the case of Buck, they found 420HC, which is a souped version of 420 (which is a poor knife steel)... has enough carbon and a heat treat protocol and QC program set up by Paul Bos. Buck can bring a very decent blade to the masses that is hard enough Rc59 and has good corrosion resistance. 420HC is much maligned, but makes a decent blade.

Similar story for AUS-8. It's a blankable steel that can be cranked out in volume and gotten to the market for a low cost of entry. Decent for inexpensive folders.

Now, I'm a steel snob, but I do think those steels have a place in the market. Kinda like Huffy bikes have a place in the market (sold in the millions) versus a Turner, Specialized S-works, Santa Cruz, Pivot, Ibis, or other high end mountain bike sold in the low thousands but for multiple thousands of dollars.

"You pays your money and you takes your choice" -- January 1846 edition of "Punch" magazine
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Rob_Angerer said:
I'm an engineer by training, have worked as an instrumentation and control system engineer for 24 years... so I come at things from an engineering perspective...
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Not exactly metallurgy in other words...

Rob_Angerer said:
Gator97, If you are trying to pick a fight...
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No, I was just trying to figure out what was your reason to post that one form such a high horse. Three are a lot of people on this and other knife forums with much better knowledge of steels and knives than most of us here, yet they manage to express their ideas a little differently.

Rob_Angerer said:
The "best choice"? Or an appropriate choice... For lower cost folders
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Again, the question was about the best choice. So for you to change the condition or question first(from best to rather vague "appropriate"), answer your own modification and then label initial question as meaningless based on your rather unrelated answer... It's not really correct.

So, in the end, knife use application is one thing and adding cost in there is entirely different aspect. generally, when looking for the "best" in any area cost is excluded, because as usual best is expensive.
If you want to be so specific in your answers, then when you start adding costs, you have to define what is low cost, what is medium etc. That also varies from person to person. Even 2 people with the same income can consider very different prices as "low" and "high".

In the and, it's safe to assume you have zero arguments for 440C or 420 being the best for any given knife use application, correct?
 
Gator97 said:
Not exactly metallurgy in other words...

No, I was just trying to figure out what was your reason to post that one form such a high horse. Three are a lot of people on this and other knife forums with much better knowledge of steels and knives than most of us here, yet they manage to express their ideas a little differently.

Again, the question was about the best choice. So for you to change the condition or question first(from best to rather vague "appropriate"), answer your own modification and then label initial question as meaningless based on your rather unrelated answer... It's not really correct.

So, in the end, knife use application is one thing and adding cost in there is entirely different aspect. generally, when looking for the "best" in any area cost is excluded, because as usual best is expensive.
If you want to be so specific in your answers, then when you start adding costs, you have to define what is low cost, what is medium etc. That also varies from person to person. Even 2 people with the same income can consider very different prices as "low" and "high".

In the and, it's safe to assume you have zero arguments for 440C or 420 being the best for any given knife use application, correct?
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Not a metallurgist by trade, (Electrical Engineer by degree, Instr & Control Sys Engr by trade) but work with metallurgists and materials guys at work, and know a fair amount about metallurgy/corrosion resistance/erosion resistance in the realm of process transmitters and control valves. I've probably studied more on knife metallurgy and heat treating than the average forumite, and find my learnings from both my career and my hobby to be complementary. But geez... :yawn: Enough on your challenge of my credibility.

I'd say 440C could be the best choice for an application where a guy couldn't afford something better, and it was his best choice for a corrosion resistant steel.

440C or AUS-8... Best of the best? Of course not. A trivial question with an obvious answer.

Let's move onward... I'm done with taking the gator bait.

:yawn: :yawn: :yawn:
 
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CPM 3V
Several years ago, I was panning around for a better steel, reading what I could read on the web, and happened across Crucible's site. I read the CPM discussions there, looked at the various offerings and the specs for each and decided this CPM-3V stuff might have some promise. Since I was (and remain) seriously into tactical knives where tough is more important than anything else, 3V's Charpy toughness numbers were impressive. Add to it 3% Vanadium for wear resistance and it looked like just what I wanted. I called the Crucible Service Center in Birmingham, AL and was promptly told it "really wasn't good for knives". I said I'd buy some anyway, and after some grumbling they agreed to sell me some. (Later on, when I tried to reorder they wouldn't even accept my order so I had to call the Crucible head office in NY and talk with a Vice President before I finally got them to agree to sell it to me. This was before Scott Devanna and the service center in Dallas of course, which became their outlet for anything to do with knives.)

I cut it, ground it, sent it off to Paul Bos for heat treating and it didn't take me long after I got it back to discover two things about it. 1) It wouldn't polish - period. I spent days trying to get it to shine and no polish I used would touch it, (At the time everything I did was mirror polished) and 2), it was just the best steel I'd ever seen. I beat the hell out of a couple blades, cut anything I could find and it just wouldn't chip or even dull. That was before I knew what vanadium carbides were all about. It did dull eventually but it took some doing. Maybe if I'd used KP's steel pipe I might have wounded it sooner, but I hadn't thought that far out.

So what makes this steel so special? For starters, it contains just 0.8% carbon which technically makes it eutectoid, but it really isn't. It's hypo eutectoid because some of its carbon is snapped up by the vanadium so it's more like 5160 than 1084. But, it's 5160 with 8% one micron carbides which makes it very wear resistant. And with just 8% Chromium it's almost stainless. In fact, if it weren't for random oxide contamination it would be very close to stainless. It is extremely fine grained as mentioned, just one micron, so it takes an incredibly fine edge, and short of hammering on a steel pipe at an angle it is also chip resistant. Even then it resists chips when tortured. KP was able to hand sharpen the chips out of the edge of his knife, so they were fairly minor considering what that edge endured.

What else do you want from an edge? Tougher than any other wear resistant tool steel. And it is very wear resistant, due to both it's carbide content and its resistance to chipping, which in real life is a major component of knife edge dulling. And it's corrosion resistant enough that a very light coat of a good gun oil will protect it for months. Plus, compared with something like S30V it's a walk in the park to grind and finish to a dead smooth but unpolished finish.

IMHO, CPM-3V is simply the best knife steel there is, period. Others have disagreed. There was mention of it in Blade magazine a few years ago where I was quoted as saying it was great and Darryl Ralph was quoted as saying he wouldn't have his name associated with it. Why the widely varied opinions? Paul Bos. 3V (not unlike S30V) is unforgiving in its heat treating requirements. It must be fast quenched or it won't fully harden. Makers who have learned to heat treat S30V won't have problem because they usually use quench plates which work fine with 3V.

I used to have large blades hardened to Rc59 and smaller blades at Rc61. Now I do all my blades at Rc61 and have never had a problem. It is still amazingly resistant to chipping and I've even had a customer bend one repeatedly to 90 degrees without it snapping until the fourth 90 degree bend. It would easily pass the ABS Journeyman Smith tests.

I could go one forever in my high regard for this steel. If you've not tried it, you should. You'll be amazed.
__________________
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This is a quote from a well known knifemaker
 
i wonder where would S5 and S7 steel rank ?

also ive been trying to find S5 steel but just cant seem to !
any suggestions?

frank
 
Screen shot, frozen for posterity.

Gator97 said:
a) There are really bad alloys for knives. 301 stainless and 400C would be good examples. Both are used in knives and I doubt anyone can name a knife use application where those would be a good or even reasonable choice over other popular knife alloys.
Or for a change, name the knife use application where 440C or AUS-8A is "the best" choice.
In other words, we have bad alloys, mediocre performers and very good performers. All for a given application.
So, OP can be easily interpreted.


That was a nice recap of the knife steel FAQ :) However, your requirements pretty much equal masters degree in metallurgy or higher and considerable knife making experience. 99% of us have neither, but still have favorites.


Oh no :) Public forum is full of opinions!!! There is certain amount of incorrect info on any public forum and hype, no other way around it, but "full" is a little bit harsh.


I see you do follow your own advise, registered in 2008, 77 posts ATM. So, that was your 2 years digest?
BTW, what's so significant about your sig? We've seen the Matrix long ago and the statement that you are propessionally skeptical for living (if you are proffesional, let's be skeptical about your words) doesn't mean anything, at least in the context of why we can't pick favorite steels, or why there are no bad ones.


After all you said, why stop now... Don't be too modest ;)
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