Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Ankerson said:
Also lets some of the knife makers get in there too to show what they got. :thumbup:
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^This. Knife-makers designing knives with the steel, HT, AND the geometry to maximize performance in the intended use :thumbup:
 
Would you agree or guess from your results so far Jim, that if you did an apples to apples 10V vs. S110V that 10V would come out slightly on top in your testing? Is there any reason to think of S110V as a SS version of 10V, or are they completely different?
 
nccole said:
Would you agree or guess from your results so far Jim, that if you did an apples to apples 10V vs. S110V that 10V would come out slightly on top in your testing? Is there any reason to think of S110V as a SS version of 10V, or are they completely different?
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There is a difference apples to apples. :)
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but there is also a difference between the different manufacturers version of A11 or 10V.
Powder, Mesh, or grain size in the manufacturing process is going to make the steels perform differently.
 
Big Chris said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but there is also a difference between the different manufacturers version of A11 or 10V.
Powder, Mesh, or grain size in the manufacturing process is going to make the steels perform differently.
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There are slight differences, mostly has to do with how clean the steels are. :)
 
Manufacturing processes do make a difference.

CM 154 vs CPM 154. Same chemistry, different manufacturing processes. CPM 154 out tests CM 154 in every one of Crucible's standardized testing methods.
 
alfred mcdougal said:
Manufacturing processes do make a difference.

CM 154 vs CPM 154. Same chemistry, different manufacturing processes. CPM 154 out tests CM 154 in every one of Crucible's standardized testing methods.
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He was asking more about the various versions of A11 = CPM 10V, K294, Zapp A11, Carpenter A11.

They are all a little different, performance wise apples to apples same knife etc they would be VERY close to each other.
 
For that matter the same steel from the same foundry varies from batch to batch. That's one reason they send the spec sheets listing the actual chemistry of each shipment. Each shipment of steel even from the same manufacturer from different heats should be tested to see if you need to tweak the heat treat if you put out the same model from year to year like Dozier, for instance.

If the A11 class differs as much from manufacturers as a steel like D2, or O-1 than indeed there will be different performance, heat treat response, etc.
 
When I order 0-1 tool steel I get the brand name like sterrett for instance. It comes wrapped in paper with the steel composition and heat treat instructions.
 
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The Mastiff said:
For that matter the same steel from the same foundry varies from batch to batch. That's one reason they send the spec sheets listing the actual chemistry of each shipment. Each shipment of steel even from the same manufacturer from different heats should be tested to see if you need to tweak the heat treat if you put out the same model from year to year like Dozier, for instance.

If the A11 class differs as much from manufacturers as a steel like D2, or O-1 than indeed there will be different performance, heat treat response, etc.
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How do you tweak the heat treat? It seems like there would be an almost infinite number of tweaks you could do.
 
Looking at the O1 specification the carbon content should be between 0.85% and 1.0%. That has to change the properties.
 
Twindog said:
How do you tweak the heat treat? It seems like there would be an almost infinite number of tweaks you could do.
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You are correct in your assumption that the changes that can be made when doing H/T are almost infinite. You can change things like Austenitizing temps, soak times, tempering temps., freeze/cryo treatments, etc.. When tweaking you should only change ONE thing at a time or you can't say for sure what made the difference in the results. Everybody's equipment is different and that's why it is important to experiment and find out what works best on your equipment.
 
When tweaking you should only change ONE thing at a time or you can't say for sure what made the difference in the results.
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Correct. Also same thing when troubleshooting things. One thing at a time beginning at the simplest, most obvious suspect. If you are running batches and one comes out non hardened, when all the others are fine and where they should be don't begin first by thinking your thermocouple is shot, or something terrible went wrong. Check first to see if the one that didn't harden is the same steel. It may have been in the wrong stack. Keep things simple and always begin with the easiest, most logical course of action. Keep batches of steel separated and marked. Make changes one thing at a time and always make test blades with new steels, or different heat treats and final hardness's. Written records help too.
 
Changing one thing at a time is fine for trying to optimize your heat treat, and I get that smiths can perfect their process for any given steel over the course of their career. But if you have to tweak your heat treat for every new batch of steel that comes in, you're going to have to change one thing, then another thing, then another thing, sometimes in one direction, sometimes in another direction, and then change things in combination. You'll run out of your new batch of steel and consume all your time long before you find the new sweet spot.

And it has to be really tough for blade smiths when they have to adjust to all the new steels that are coming out or becoming popular with their customers.

The steel comes with basic heat-treating instructions, but we heard from top smiths re the development of S30V that the steel companies are not set up for knife steels and need knife makers to help them create new steels and adjust the heat treat. I'd guess that most smiths leave a lot of performance in the oven.
 
The best hunting knife I ever owned was 440c. Actually, the best knife period I guess. 440c right? Ok steel. Hard to sharpen? Not this one. Actually never really had to sharpen. Just touched up. Cleaned deer after deer. Field dressed, skinned, quartered and butchered. Still scary sharp. Hit it with a stone, just because...My point being. Every batch is different(as we have talked about) and this one apparently got lucky. It was mass produced and maybe there are more out there. I'm sure there are. Wish I could find another like it. Mine was stolen. A story in itself.....

H/T is a science. And an art. And no, you can't, there is no way to H/T steel to the exact same tolerances when steels from different batches are used. Sometimes you get lucky, the grail so to speak. And sometimes you get, Meh. Average is just fine. That's what the protocols are, average. But sometimes you get perfection. Or near. And perfection is what we are all looking for.

I would think that a builder like Busse would come closest to being able to produce "perfection" on a larger scale than most. Smaller production but large enough to get large batches of steel that they have "perfected" the H/T on. Spyderco and the like.
 
No offense, but if a 440C knife is the best you have ever used (in terms of going a long time without needing sharpened) you need to try more knives. I guarantee Spyderco's Southfork in S90V would out-cut that knife. More than half their mules would out-cut that knife. Heat treat is important, but it is not magic. Alloy still matters.
 
Not just not needing sharpening. The ease in which it cut(Grind?), toughness(never chipped on bones or rolled), blade shape was a good all around(4.5" drop point) not "best" for everything but good for most anything. Paper micarta handle fit my hand just right. And I did touch it up, weather it needed it or not:p I know alloy matters. And I am a huge fan of Spyderco. But this was a $50.00 knife using a common, and underrated steel IMO(if treated right). I have owned a couple of 440C blades that were a bear to sharpen. And didn't really hold an edge so great. What's up with that? This one was just right.

I generally, well almost all the time, sharpen every blade as soon as it gets to me. I freehand and while I know I'm sure not the best my knives are sharper that pretty much anyone I know. Easiest to work with and hold an edge is a Big Chris in CPM 3-v. Large blade but has a very thin grind. By work with I mean sometimes I'll make the edge more obtuse for chopping, sometimes I'll thin it for slicing. Just takes a few strokes. Pretty cool. This 3v is becoming one of my favorites. I've dinged it up using it for what it's not made for. The dings don't do anything as far as dulling. I'm gonna send it back to Chris, one of these days and get him to work on it just a little to get it exactly where I think it needs to be. I think back the edge up just a hair.

My point being. A great knife is not just heat treat, alloy, grind, blade shape etc. It's a sum of its parts.
 
sirupatespecial said:
My point being. A great knife is not just heat treat, alloy, grind, blade shape etc. It's a sum of its parts.
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No argument.

I've found that sometimes what appears to be amazing performance, when broken down into its fundamentals, is actually an opportunity for a learning experience--but if you are that happy with the performance why worry about "why"? On the other hand, if you look further into that performance to find out what's really going on, you may be able to better duplicate the performance again in other blades.

To me it sounds as if the blade on your 440C knife is ground very thin, which means cutting on soft materials may continue with little effort even after edge alignment is lost. Also, if it is a point or two softer than "optimal", that thin edge may become a little ragged from contact with sand/dirt particles in the hair/hide of the animals you process, developing a de-facto serrated effect which will enhance cutting even more on meat and hides. I've experienced both these phenomena in a little AUS-8A bladed AG Russell Deer Hunter which seemingly would never stop cutting on meat and hide. It wasn't until I examined the edge under 30x magnification to try and find out what was going on that I could see it was "chewed up" to the point of being visibly ragged. BUT it still cut...whether I sharpened it or not.
 
Will York said:
To me it sounds as if the blade on your 440C knife is ground very thin, which means cutting on soft materials may continue with little effort even after edge alignment is lost. Also, if it is a point or two softer than "optimal", that thin edge may become a little ragged from contact with sand/dirt particles in the hair/hide of the animals you process, developing a de-facto serrated effect which will enhance cutting even more on meat and hides. I've experienced both these phenomena in a little AUS-8A bladed AG Russell Deer Hunter which seemingly would never stop cutting on meat and hide. It wasn't until I examined the edge under 30x magnification to try and find out what was going on that I could see it was "chewed up" to the point of being visibly ragged. BUT it still cut...whether I sharpened it or not.
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Some very good points made which I had not considered, but thinking about them make perfect sense. :)
 
This is a great thread! I've been reading through it, and I probably missed it, but what is the difference between categories?

I know the top one is successively better ranked than the ones below each category, but is there a % difference between categories? Is it a small but noticeable difference where the marginal benefit of getting a production knife in category 2 is practically just as good as a production knife in category 1, or we getting into double digit % differences? I understand there are "big differences", but I'm just trying to shed some more light onto this difference. And, on that note, Ankerson mentions that Phil Wilson's knives are much better than how it is categorized currently, but just to get some perspective on his custom knife quality, where does Phil Wilson's knives rank in terms of this difference... -2 category (meaning much higher quality than category 1)?

Thanks in advance!
 
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