Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Thanks Will. :)

Taking into count that the knives aren't dull after testing, more so in the coarse edge section still having a usable edge on them it doesn't take more than a few passes on a ceramic or a strop to bring back the bite.

So I never saw the point myself other than noting it in the full reviews that I do.

Chris Berry (Big Chris) can attest to that since he got more than one knife back after I tested them with the as tested edge.

That is very much true about the usefulness of the edges after testing.
The knives that I had returned from Jim would still cut printer paper after reaching 20 pounds of down force in Jim's testing.
The knives were thinly ground and required only minimal work to restore the edges to my standard of sharpness.
I did step back to a 600 grit diamond before moving to a 1200 and then strop.
 
DMT Stone. I have started doing primarily all my sharpening on smaller knives freehand.
 
DMT Stone. I have started doing primarily all my sharpening on smaller knives freehand.

Yep--great stones. I have the 10-inch 1200-grit Dia Sharp with continuous diamond (no holes) and for me it's da bomb on hard steel. :thumbup:

It was actually developed for on-site sharpening of large blades during BladeSports competitions where contestants didn't have access to belts for sharpening those big blades, but it works on all sizes very well.

Thanks,
Will
 
Even though we are discussing knives of high wear and high hardness they are actually very easy to sharpen and maintain and I will explain why.
Jim and I have talked about this several times.
The actual amount of steel that need to be removed or cleaned up is very minimal.
The latest knife I sent to Ankerson was a 4V knife at 63 Rc. The edge geometry was rather thin at .008" at the shoulder behind the edge.
Sharpened at 15 degrees per side there is only a .015" flat where the stone is actually making contact with the bevel. Very minimal with very fast material removal.

On a knife that has a measurement of .030" behind the edge has a flat of .058" to remove steel from in order to re-apex the edge. In theory, all things equal, it will take at least 3 times as long to bring edge #2 to the same level of sharpness because there is 3 times the material to be removed.

On the Phil Wilson knife just tested, at .004" behind the edge the bevel is only .007" long.

Again, even with the high hardness a thinner edge will be easier to maintain than a thicker edge.

The thinner edge may not be as tough/robust but it will far surpass a thicker edge in cutting ability and cutting life.
 
Even though we are discussing knives of high wear and high hardness they are actually very easy to sharpen and maintain and I will explain why.
Jim and I have talked about this several times.
The actual amount of steel that need to be removed or cleaned up is very minimal.
The latest knife I sent to Ankerson was a 4V knife at 63 Rc. The edge geometry was rather thin at .008" at the shoulder behind the edge.
Sharpened at 15 degrees per side there is only a .015" flat where the stone is actually making contact with the bevel. Very minimal with very fast material removal.

On a knife that has a measurement of .030" behind the edge has a flat of .058" to remove steel from in order to re-apex the edge. In theory, all things equal, it will take at least 3 times as long to bring edge #2 to the same level of sharpness because there is 3 times the material to be removed.

On the Phil Wilson knife just tested, at .004" behind the edge the bevel is only .007" long.

Again, even with the high hardness a thinner edge will be easier to maintain than a thicker edge.

The thinner edge may not be as tough/robust but it will far surpass a thicker edge in cutting ability and cutting life.

Super analysis--thank you for taking the time to go through those calculations. :thumbup:
 
On the Phil Wilson knife just tested, at .004" behind the edge the bevel is only .007" long.

Jim mentioned that he sharpened it back up in about 5 minutes, that's about right for me as well. Plus, the harder steels have very minimal burring, making sharpening much easier. Win-win all the way around.
 
I find that the burr on these steels is very small also. When I show/teach someone how to sharpen I like to use an old cheap Chinese made knife because the burr is so large that when you strop it, it comes off in large "flakes". It makes demonstrating the "burr" much easier.
 
I agree high carbide steel at a nice high RC with a thin edge are very easy to sharpen. Working with a CPM M4 test (RC 64) knife today and after to cutting on rope till it lost the bite I hit it on a loaded strop ( 4 swipes per side and 30 seconds) and it was right back up to the original sharpness. I find the edge will not last as long as the original off the stone when you do the strop trick but is a quick and easy tune up in the field to keep the nice aggressive bite going. I see references on the forum to HC steels are fine on soft materials if you do not mind a dull blade for long term cutting. My experience has been long term cutting on abrasive materials like pig hide and the bite will last till the job is done. A quick tune up --wupp/ wupp on the strop 30 seconds and back to scary bite if you want to do another pig or elk.

Hi Will, still have the Dunkerly/Wilson 10V? thanks SODAK for lending Jim the knife. Phil
 
I see references on the forum to HC steels are fine on soft materials if you do not mind a dull blade for long term cutting. My experience has been long term cutting on abrasive materials like pig hide and the bite will last till the job is done. A quick tune up --wupp/ wupp on the strop 30 seconds and back to scary bite if you want to do another pig or elk.

Phil

That's been my experience also in that it takes a long time for them to lose that bite in comparison to the other steels and not all that difficult to bring it back. :)

So I don't agree either with the references to soft materials and dull blades.
 
I just put an edge on my first CPM 3V knife tested at 62 rc. I used a silicon carbide stone and finished up to 400 grit and then stropped with 600 grit silicon carbide lapping grit. The edge is very aggressive and about .009" behind the edge. Looking forward to see how it compares to other grades.
 
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I am a newbie to this forum, and love this thread. My question is I see 3 of the top 4 blades in the coarse finish category are CPM 10v, and CPM 10v is not even listed in the initial, fine finish list. What am I missing?
 
I am a newbie to this forum, and love this thread. My question is I see 3 of the top 4 blades in the coarse finish category are CPM 10v, and CPM 10v is not even listed in the initial, fine finish list. What am I missing?

Nothing, I stopped doing the polished edge testing awhile back, they don't compare or relate.
 
I just put an edge on my first CPM 3V knife tested at 62 rc. I used a silicon carbide stone and finished up to 400 grit and then stropped with 600 grit silicon carbide lapping grit. The edge is very aggressive and about .009" behind the edge. Looking forward to see how it compares to other grades.

I think that will work. :D :thumbup:
 
I have come to the conclusion that some of the differences of opinion regarding high carbide steel relates to how "sharp" is defined.
I know that seems silly, but I think that my "sharp" is somebody else's "dull".
 
... I see references on the forum to HC steels are fine on soft materials if you do not mind a dull blade for long term cutting...

I have come to the conclusion that some of the differences of opinion regarding high carbide steel relates to how "sharp" is defined.
I know that seems silly, but I think that my "sharp" is somebody else's "dull".

There seems to be a base assumption by such folk that a low-grit edge for abrasive cutting (what HC steels excel at) is already "dull" and unusable for harder materials/use like carving wood (e.g. planar blades) or for delicate push-cutting like shaving or surgery. The lateral stresses inherent in carving hard materials call for a more refined high-grit edge and also a thicker apex-angle for a stable geometry that would not be preferred in abrasive cutting and shaving. In razor-blades the goal is a very thin very polished and refined apex that would not well withstand the lateral stresses of carving nor abrasive cutting.

The thing is, the low-grit edge for abrasive-cutting is "sharper" than the refined edge sharpened to the same angle because the low-grit edge has "teeth" that penetrate more easily than a high-grit edge, focusing cutting-force onto a smaller area. And the low-grit edge retains this "toothed" profile through more abrasive cuts than the "un-toothed" edge that smooths out. But the low-grit edge does not push-cut as well as the high-grit edge because the teeth have rough ("dull" less acute) spots between them where material can pile up on a push, and the teeth can gouge into the material being cut and experience lateral stress that bends/breaks them as they lack support from material at their sides. Thus push-cutting with a plain-edge evinces higher apparent sharpness and durability at the same apex angle, regardless of high- or low-carbide.

Low-grit vs high-grit is a matter of sharpening/finishing, not a matter of steel-type.

"Sharp" should refer to average apex diameter along the edge. Low-carbide steel (<10% carbide) can achieve an average apex-diameter (at best) ~0.5um. It is limited by the hardness of the matrix, carbides+binder. A tungsten-carbide or diamond microtome blade (>80% carbide) can achieve an apex diameter ~0.005um, 100X sharper, due to its superior hardness. High-carbide steel (>10% carbide) can achieve a blade sharper than a low-carbide blade through shaping carbides at the apex, but the difference should be imperceptible to a user as the percentage of carbides in the apex isn't really all that different. In abrasive cutting, the high-carbide steel holds this sharp edge longer than a low-carbide blade as those carbides function as plates to prevent the binder (which stabilizes the edge) from being abraded away, whether the edge is finished to a high-grit or a low-grit. In non-abrasive cutting of soft materials (e.g. food), high-carbide steel can take the same level of edge refinement as a low-carbide steel, it just requires better (sharper/harder) sharpening equipment, and it will hold that edge just as well as low-carbide steels. Now if you start testing impact or lateral strength at very thin geometries (e.g. <12-dps) carving hard materials, you might notice that higher carbide leads to lower fracture-toughness, but I have doubts about the significance of such tests in common use of knives since the impact-toughness threshold is fairly low for most steels at knife-hardness levels (20-50J compared to >150J in steels like S7), and the threshold edge-angle for avoiding chipping in planar blades is ~15-dps. Geometry is the dominating factor
The assertion of taking a "dull" edge and holding it forever is founded on either poorly prepared steel or poor sharpening equipment/technique. Depending on one's use, one could certainly get-by with 420HC or 440A or 13C26 or even 1084 or 1075, and those are much cheaper, but they are not "sharper" than a high-carbide steel like S110V, they are just easier to HT and to grind to a high-grit polished edge. They also dull quickly.
 
Mr Grolim. Thank you for putting my comment in perspective. It obviously took a lot of thought and time. Much better than I could have expressed it.
Phil
 
There seems to be a base assumption by such folk that a low-grit edge for abrasive cutting (what HC steels excel at) is already "dull" and unusable for harder materials/use like carving wood (e.g. planar blades) or for delicate push-cutting like shaving or surgery. The lateral stresses inherent in carving hard materials call for a more refined high-grit edge and also a thicker apex-angle for a stable geometry that would not be preferred in abrasive cutting and shaving. In razor-blades the goal is a very thin very polished and refined apex that would not well withstand the lateral stresses of carving nor abrasive cutting.

The thing is, the low-grit edge for abrasive-cutting is "sharper" than the refined edge sharpened to the same angle because the low-grit edge has "teeth" that penetrate more easily than a high-grit edge, focusing cutting-force onto a smaller area. And the low-grit edge retains this "toothed" profile through more abrasive cuts than the "un-toothed" edge that smooths out. But the low-grit edge does not push-cut as well as the high-grit edge because the teeth have rough ("dull" less acute) spots between them where material can pile up on a push, and the teeth can gouge into the material being cut and experience lateral stress that bends/breaks them as they lack support from material at their sides. Thus push-cutting with a plain-edge evinces higher apparent sharpness and durability at the same apex angle, regardless of high- or low-carbide.

Low-grit vs high-grit is a matter of sharpening/finishing, not a matter of steel-type.

"Sharp" should refer to average apex diameter along the edge. Low-carbide steel (<10% carbide) can achieve an average apex-diameter (at best) ~0.5um. It is limited by the hardness of the matrix, carbides+binder. A tungsten-carbide or diamond microtome blade (>80% carbide) can achieve an apex diameter ~0.005um, 100X sharper, due to its superior hardness. High-carbide steel (>10% carbide) can achieve a blade sharper than a low-carbide blade through shaping carbides at the apex, but the difference should be imperceptible to a user as the percentage of carbides in the apex isn't really all that different. In abrasive cutting, the high-carbide steel holds this sharp edge longer than a low-carbide blade as those carbides function as plates to prevent the binder (which stabilizes the edge) from being abraded away, whether the edge is finished to a high-grit or a low-grit. In non-abrasive cutting of soft materials (e.g. food), high-carbide steel can take the same level of edge refinement as a low-carbide steel, it just requires better (sharper/harder) sharpening equipment, and it will hold that edge just as well as low-carbide steels. Now if you start testing impact or lateral strength at very thin geometries (e.g. <12-dps) carving hard materials, you might notice that higher carbide leads to lower fracture-toughness, but I have doubts about the significance of such tests in common use of knives since the impact-toughness threshold is fairly low for most steels at knife-hardness levels (20-50J compared to >150J in steels like S7), and the threshold edge-angle for avoiding chipping in planar blades is ~15-dps. Geometry is the dominating factor
The assertion of taking a "dull" edge and holding it forever is founded on either poorly prepared steel or poor sharpening equipment/technique. Depending on one's use, one could certainly get-by with 420HC or 440A or 13C26 or even 1084 or 1075, and those are much cheaper, but they are not "sharper" than a high-carbide steel like S110V, they are just easier to HT and to grind to a high-grit polished edge. They also dull quickly.

Thanks for the extremely well thought out post. :thumbup:
 
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