Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

[Ankerson]

Agreed, but many times they are NOT touching up when it is all that it is needed.

Yet you didn't comment about this part: "Well, if you're expecting abuse you don't use S35VN at 55-57 but 3V at 59-60 and you can nearly blow any media capable of being cut/chopped/pierced to Kingdom Come and beyond. With (yes) not that much less stain resistance and more edge retention.
If you knife maker (in the end) heat treat M390/Elmax in the same way you would 440C you quite missed the whole picture. Or just missed the basics of metallurgy."

Should I think that CS is offering that knife at 63.5 on a daredevilling base?

The production companies have to be careful covered that one.

 

[daberti]

The production companies have to be careful covered that one.

 

[MCM]

"63+ or even 64+ on modern PM steels are NOT a problem even for my 15yrs nephew just barely using Spyd's Sharpmaker rods"

Do not overestamate the general public. You will be disapointed...............

 

[daberti]

"63+ or even 64+ on modern PM steels are NOT a problem even for my 15yrs nephew just barely using Spyd's Sharpmaker rods"

Do not overestamate the general public. You will be disapointed...............

I don't, yet using steels for cutlery clearly out of their sweet spot it is a different ballgame: i.e. I found (as many friends of mine that ignore instead any sharpening skill other than Sharpie and yet do hunting/fishing) that it is actually easier to bring back an edge on a PM steel as CPM-S3xVx at 61 than on N690 at 58.

Then, as I said before, whenever I detect this kind of an approach in the selling line of a brand, I know what to expect and simply do not buy, also because I find no sense in paying more for getting less, having found a production knifemaker who shares my own metallurgical approach doing so at quite affordable prices. Edit: two ones, as now I can count CS in.
My point is that it is better AEB-L carefully HTd (does not necessarily need to be custom) than Elmax at 58.5 (reference to Elmax Mule is intentionally done).

 

[Ankerson]

My point is that it is better AEB-L carefully HTd (does not necessarily need to be custom) than Elmax at 58.5 (reference to Elmax Mule is intentionally done).

That ELMAX Mule is almost 5X as thick behind the edge than the AEB-L blade, .028" compared to .006".

That was most of it, thin that ELMAX blade down to .006" and things would change dramatically, even at 58.5....

 

[daberti]

I was not referring to the custom knives. AEB-L has Sandvik equivalents and as I said before even from a production perspective it is not uncommon to have a less proficient steel on the chart performing pretty closer than expected to a super-duper one under hardened. Meant use implies usage of proper steels that allow in their turn a certain sweet spot. Then you'll know that you can afford to reasonably (production grade) push geometry proficient for the task to a certain level and not beyond. CS wisely did it with that knife.
If some production makers do the things right metallurgically wise, with affordable prices and are able to stay on the market .........

 

[Ankerson]

I was not referring to the custom knives. AEB-L has Sandvik equivalents and as I said before even from a production perspective it is not uncommon to have a less proficient steel on the chart performing pretty closer than expected to a super-duper one under hardened. Meant use implies usage of proper steels that allow in their turn a certain sweet spot. Then you'll know that you can afford to reasonably (production grade) push geometry proficient for the task to a certain level and not beyond. CS wisely did it with that knife.
If some production makers do the things right metallurgically wise, with affordable prices and are able to stay on the market .........

It's all about the variables.

We aren't going to see many production companies pushing the limits for the reasons that have been stated in this thread and others.

Some will do it for certain models here and there, but those are usually specific models for specific uses.

Way too many people around with video cameras or IPHONES etc these days all too willing to make negative videos intentionally.

Take a production knife that's .005" behind the edge and in the higher HRC range and before long somebody will make a video battening it through a 6" thick log with a hammer or some huge piece of wood.

And then tell everyone it's a POS, that's just how things go these days.

 

[MCM]

There is also difficulty in doing large batch's at the upper end of things. Where more normal levels of HT (larger range) are much easier to accomplish.
There can be a lot of waste going for that last .5 when your doing hundreds at a time. Not to mention its harder to control a larger batch at the upper range. For example, there was a huge learning curve when large batch's of M390 started being produced a few yrs ago. Check out the ht process here. http://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/engl...les/S390DE.pdf At times even the manufacture of the steel needs to learn how to HT large quantities and ensure consistency. We make it sound so easy here......... It really isn't.............
Small runs? No problem...............

 

[marthinus]

Good point. (A bit off topic) I had a "fellow" helping me install some fake grass last year.
So I get out my old 7" Swibo / Wenger Swiss Insulators knife. It was doing a great job for me.
It must have got a bit dull and before I knew it this "fellow" was going to town on my knife
on the top of a concrete block. Still has big scratches on both sides. But was a little sharper when he was finished.
Not a high dollar knife, but an old favorite none the less. LOL LOL
Most folks would hate 63+, and big smart production companies really do know what they are doing. (More so than us)
Just a little food for thought...........

I have seen that quite often. It is in my experience only the last few decades that people do not sharpen a knife like that any more unless you go to more rural regions.

People tend to be very eager to show their sharpening skills on a benchgrinder as well IMO. No matter where you go. Especially if they "cant get it sharp".

63+ or even 64+ on modern PM steels are NOT a problem even for my 15yrs nephew just barely using Spyd's Sharpmaker rods

Is he just touching up the steel or doing a full reprofile?

When I talk about sharpening I refer to a full edge reprofile, not a touchup.

 

[daberti]

It's all about the variables.

We aren't going to see many production companies pushing the limits for the reasons that have been stated in this thread and others.

Some will do it for certain models here and there, but those are usually specific models for specific uses.

Way too many people around with video cameras or IPHONES etc these days all too willing to make negative videos intentionally.

Take a production knife that's .005" behind the edge and in the higher HRC range and before long somebody will make a video battening it through a 6" thick log with a hammer or some huge piece of wood.

And then tell everyone it's a POS, that's just how things go these days.

Jim, you have some good reasons on your side when you refer to these stupid videos.
What I'm Saying is that it is a shame to see Sal or others being "forced" to act in a certain way just because some guys use a knife as a prybar or alike.

Bottom line.
CTS-XHP and s30v or s35vn can go fairly beyond 63.5 and 61-62 before crossing the danger line.

 

[MCM]

nevermind,

 

[daberti]

Agreed

 

[JNewell]

That ELMAX Mule is almost 5X as thick behind the edge than the AEB-L blade, .028" compared to .006".

That was most of it, thin that ELMAX blade down to .006" and things would change dramatically, even at 58.5....

Seems to me you are unlikely to see that, though. The current fashion is thick, thicker and thickest blades and with normal primary and secondary grinds you're going to have the blade thick behind the edge.

 

[JNewell]

What I'm Saying is that it is a shame to see Sal or others being "forced" to act in a certain way just because some guys use a knife as a prybar or alike.

Not disagreeing with you, but he is in a consumer, mass-market business, for the most part, so he is sort of stuck dealing with the lowest common denominator of that market. Someone like Phil Wilson has the advantage of dealing with a much more knowledgable market, but at much smaller volume. TLDR: it is what it is?

 

[Ankerson]

Seems to me you are unlikely to see that, though. The current fashion is thick, thicker and thickest blades and with normal primary and secondary grinds you're going to have the blade thick behind the edge.

Oh I know, when I was at Blade Show I couldn't believe what I was seeing the most of.

 

[daberti]

Not disagreeing with you, but he is in a consumer, mass-market business, for the most part, so he is sort of stuck dealing with the lowest common denominator of that market. Someone like Phil Wilson has the advantage of dealing with a much more knowledgable market, but at much smaller volume. TLDR: it is what it is?

Ok ok. In between mass-market (for the most part) and Phil/Big Chris/Neels Roos and so on do stand production companies as CS and Fantoni (if you know others please chime in as I'd be quite interested) that are both on the market since 1980 (Spyderco since 1978) and presumably are willing to keep on.
So have these two companies all at once devoted theirselves to commit commercial suicide or maybe had they raised the bar of production knives with respect being given to the aforementioned Lowest Common Denominator?
More over: if three hundred bucks are asked for an LCD blade then my asset is to quit purchasing (and with that it goes quitting that company as well, excluded the affordable plain old 440C/VG10/CM154 blades , with all of my respect).

I do use my blades. I'll repeat: I DO USE them. With common sense, as cutting tools, for what they'be been projected and engineered for. Common sense.
Every blade will break, sooner or later, given (un)proper solicitations. Sure S125V will chip from hard impact and granted it is NOT a chopping steel: are you going then with .5" behind the edge and 59HRC in a 3" folding knife asking for 500 quids as it is S125V afterall? Keep it.

 

[MCM]

"So have these two companies all at once devoted theirselves to commit commercial suicide or maybe had they raised the bar of production knives with respect being given to the aforementioned Lowest Common Denominator?"

I would not get all worked up over 1 run of one model getting a higher HT.
99.9% of sales are still the "other" stuff. Throwing stars etc.

 

[daberti]

"So have these two companies all at once devoted theirselves to commit commercial suicide or maybe had they raised the bar of production knives with respect being given to the aforementioned Lowest Common Denominator?"

I would not get all worked up over 1 run of one model getting a higher HT.
99.9% of sales are still the "other" stuff. Throwing stars etc.

That's quite correct as far as CS is concerned, yet it is one more alternative
Fantoni on the other hand routinely runs S30V/S35VN/S125V at 61-62.

I'm quite satisfied about my BM Contego (black coating) also, tested at 63.3 and resharpened at 20° per side.
BM looks like having raised a little bit their HRC. Is it just my own impression? Asking.

 

[d00mtr33]

Wow, im surprised to see the CS knife at 63.5 hrc, especially when in most descriptions it said the range is 60-61. Id buy one in a minute if its 62 to 64 hrc like xhp shoube ran (been saing this for a while, same with s35vn) but is that the norm or was that a freak accident and they got a higher hrc than desired. I kniw most companies (microtech excluded, best s35vn I ever had was on my socoms) run their steel a few point lower and keep the grind at .020 and above which makes for a crappy knife for cuttinf but I guess you can pry open a tank with it. This is one of the biggest reasons im buying more midtechs and custom knives then production even though spyderco will always have a huge place in my heart. Andre Thorburn knives are made incredibly well and at a decent price but the best feature is out of 6 ive owned all were under .015 and most are at .012. Its a pleasure to work with such a well crafted knife. I recently got a Direware solo5, its been my dream knife for over 2 plus years and I knew I wanted one no matter that is a overbuilt knife. Well I was very pleasantly surprised when I got it to find the s110v blade ground to about .014 for most of the edge and thickened to around .020 at the tip which is good imo, its the wharncliff version btw. So if an "overbuilt" tacticool knife us ok being ground to under .015, why arent more edc knives? Microtech runs their steels hard, 60 to 62 hrc for s35vn and their grings are pretty lean and they seem to not llse money from blade replacement. I guess im not a ceo of a big company and I have to factor certain things in and cover my ass so blades dont break but on my beloved military and para2 the problem is the thin tip and I dont think an extra few points of hardness will make it that much more brittle but it will give a much better knive in return. Either bump up the hardness or thin out the grind, having both is overkill imo but what do I know?

 

[MCM]

1st CS folder for me in 20 years. Thanks for the tip Jim.