Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

daberti said:
I would like to explain some things.

S110V holds some advantage against S90V as far as edge holding is concerned when it is at 63HRC (S90V@60-61 as a reference). Now, please bear in mind that this will be only in a 100% highly abrasive media environment. In a mix of daily cutting tasks the gap will be barely noticeable.
In my mind S110V it is NOT a quantum leap forward, as it is i.e. S125V, even at 62.
What it is always true is that S110V and S90V at aforementioned hardness levels will score different toughness, clearly enough in favor of the latter.
This introduces another matter, which answers to your post.
If your tasks involve harsh media as ones mentioned to which I would add opening blisters, and some small impact or side load (albeit small ones), you will be able to face them with S90V using smaller edge angles and TBE (thickness behind the edge): in a word a more proficient geometry. This in your own cutting environment would lead S90V to eventually outgun S110V.
You mentioned 30 inclusive. I would not set -in your meant usage- less than 40 inclusive on S110V/S125V. And 36 inclusive on S90V. Unless going very fine with grits, like 10k Naniwa Chosera, but it would prove far less proficient in your cutting target.
Facts are that these very high alloyed/very high carbon and very high carbide content SS do require some edge thickness to support the high volume of carbides.
Unless you know that they'll be used in a very well defined environment, which excludes side load, impacts etc., which I do know being the case for Phil's customers.
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Very interesting.
 
daberti said:
I would like to explain some things.

S110V holds some advantage against S90V as far as edge holding is concerned when it is at 63HRC (S90V@60-61 as a reference). Now, please bear in mind that this will be only in a 100% highly abrasive media environment. In a mix of daily cutting tasks the gap will be barely noticeable.
In my mind S110V it is NOT a quantum leap forward, as it is i.e. S125V, even at 62.
What it is always true is that S110V and S90V at aforementioned hardness levels will score different toughness, clearly enough in favor of the latter.
This introduces another matter, which answers to your post.
If your tasks involve harsh media as ones mentioned to which I would add opening blisters, and some small impact or side load (albeit small ones), you will be able to face them with S90V using smaller edge angles and TBE (thickness behind the edge): in a word a more proficient geometry. This in your own cutting environment would lead S90V to eventually outgun S110V.
You mentioned 30 inclusive. I would not set -in your meant usage- less than 40 inclusive on S110V/S125V. And 36 inclusive on S90V. Unless going very fine with grits, like 10k Naniwa Chosera, but it would prove far less proficient in your cutting target.
Facts are that these very high alloyed/very high carbon and very high carbide content SS do require some edge thickness to support the high volume of carbides.
Unless you know that they'll be used in a very well defined environment, which excludes side load, impacts etc., which I do know being the case for Phil's customers.
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Which is why I think 4V and similar steels will be the better all around edc steel if people actually use their knives. Very tough with great edge retention. There may be better steels that can handle soft abrasive material better, longer, but when it comes to a variety of media with sometimes sloppy cutting, toughness does come into play. That's why I don't put much stock into tests that only use rope and cardboard as the testing media with very controlled cuts on small portions of the edge. I don't know anyone who actually uses a knife like that. Does it test for pure edge retention? Yes and no. It does if you only cut cardboard or rope or other soft abrasive material in a very, very controlled manner. Most people think that S110V is a great steel. I don't really like it. I don't really care for S30V either. They dull really fast for me and it's because they're not tough or strong enough. I don't do a ton of prying or hacking, but I cut a lot of random crap and it's not usually in the most controlled manner. Give me the highest level of toughness and strength combined with the highest abrasion resistance and then I can get on board.
 
For folders, S90v is still probably my favorite blade steel. Followed by M390.
A lot of this is just personal preference. And thats what keeps it fun.
 
bodog said:
Which is why I think 4V and similar steels will be the better all around edc steel if people actually use their knives. Very tough with great edge retention. There may be better steels that can handle soft abrasive material better, longer, but when it comes to a variety of media with sometimes sloppy cutting, toughness does come into play. That's why I don't put much stock into tests that only use rope and cardboard as the testing media with very controlled cuts on small portions of the edge. I don't know anyone who actually uses a knife like that. Does it test for pure edge retention? Yes and no. It does if you only cut cardboard or rope or other soft abrasive material in a very, very controlled manner. Most people think that S110V is a great steel. I don't really like it. I don't really care for S30V either. They dull really fast for me and it's because they're not tough or strong enough. I don't do a ton of prying or hacking, but I cut a lot of random crap and it's not usually in the most controlled manner. Give me the highest level of toughness and strength combined with the highest abrasion resistance and then I can get on board.
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Bodog, first let me say that Jim is doing the best testing actually available. Also toughness comes into play and not only sheer abrasive resistance.

Said that 4V is a quite interesting steel along with Vanadis 4E, yet as an allround use blade steel I'd recommend either 3V or CPM-M4 and equivalents.
Why? In a nutshell because they contain very fine grained carbides, respectively MC V carbides and M3C W carbides + MC V carbides. No Cr carbides when properly HTd and in the worst conditions just traces of Moly carbides, that is to say that all of Cr and Moly will be available to stain/pitting resistance extents. This had been demostrated in real-life usage by Surferringo with CPM-M4 blades from Phil. CPM-3V is said to pit rust sometimes, but proper PVD or passivating it should definitely overcome this culprit.
CPM-M4 and equivalents like BU S690 by splitting the carbides content into very hard W and V type, who link only one part of carbon do allow for very fine grained carbides AND allow proper clearance for high hardness.
Think of Cr based M7C3 and M23C6 carbides: bigger dimensions, a good deal more C taken away (less hardness) and Cr stolen from stainless performance.
Back to S110V, would it have been 14%Cr (instead of >15%) no Cobalt no Niobium and lets say 4-6%W I think it would have given S125V a serious run for its money, as W carbides are pretty much more resistant to high temps (HTing).
S30V/S35VN are very good steels. Lets make an example: 40°C out there, with 70%RH, you've the very best Amarone wine at your hands, but it does not provide you any relief to your thirst. Would you say that Amarone is a shabby wine? I wouldn't. Simply you picked up the wrong liquid.
Same for knife steels. S30V/S35VN properly HTd in the 61-62 range provide already nearly their best payload. Skinners, hunters, fighters, folders. Of coursenot for machetes, kukri, chopping, prying.
M390, no news to me, it is a very very good steel. Toughness in excess of 40J even at >62 (and you can get that with vacuum + DC), stellar stain resistance. Edge holding not too far away from S90V @ 61. A bitch to HT properly.
 
I understand what you're saying, and agree that at the end of the day only an individual can determine what will work best for their own specific use and sharpening habits and needs. The huge benefit of testing like Jim's is that it does give a good basis for comparison under the specific conditions of the test. Not perfect, but way better than nothing or than random user reports that can't be compared at all on any basis.

bodog said:
Which is why I think 4V and similar steels will be the better all around edc steel if people actually use their knives. Very tough with great edge retention. There may be better steels that can handle soft abrasive material better, longer, but when it comes to a variety of media with sometimes sloppy cutting, toughness does come into play. That's why I don't put much stock into tests that only use rope and cardboard as the testing media with very controlled cuts on small portions of the edge. I don't know anyone who actually uses a knife like that. Does it test for pure edge retention? Yes and no. It does if you only cut cardboard or rope or other soft abrasive material in a very, very controlled manner. Most people think that S110V is a great steel. I don't really like it. I don't really care for S30V either. They dull really fast for me and it's because they're not tough or strong enough. I don't do a ton of prying or hacking, but I cut a lot of random crap and it's not usually in the most controlled manner. Give me the highest level of toughness and strength combined with the highest abrasion resistance and then I can get on board.
Click to expand...
 
JNewell said:
I understand what you're saying, and agree that at the end of the day only an individual can determine what will work best for their own specific use and sharpening habits and needs. The huge benefit of testing like Jim's is that it does give a good basis for comparison under the specific conditions of the test. Not perfect, but way better than nothing or than random user reports that can't be compared at all on any basis.
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Definitely well said JNewell :thumbup:
 
daberti said:
Bodog, first let me say that Jim is doing the best testing actually available. Also toughness comes into play and not only sheer abrasive resistance.

Said that 4V is a quite interesting steel along with Vanadis 4E, yet as an allround use blade steel I'd recommend either 3V or CPM-M4 and equivalents.
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Agree with the first part as far as pure edge retention goes.

The second part is partially true, depending on what your requirements are. I personally think for most of my knives the combination of high toughness along with the high wear resistance is hard to beat over the slight increase of one over the sacrifice of the other, but to each his own.

It's true, though, that doing anything close to a real world, independently verifiable, test of steels is too scarce. Jim's time and money and effort is appreciated. He never claims something that isn't backed up by his own testing.
 
JNewell said:
I understand what you're saying, and agree that at the end of the day only an individual can determine what will work best for their own specific use and sharpening habits and needs. The huge benefit of testing like Jim's is that it does give a good basis for comparison under the specific conditions of the test. Not perfect, but way better than nothing or than random user reports that can't be compared at all on any basis.
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Agree completely. It sucks most people can't test toughness without really jacking the blade up.
 
bodog said:
Agree with the first part as far as pure edge retention goes.

The second part is partially true, depending on what your requirements are. I personally think for most of my knives the combination of high toughness along with the high wear resistance is hard to beat over the slight increase of one over the sacrifice of the other, but to each his own.
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Well, if you're after the combination you mentioned 3V, 4V, Vanadis 4E, CPM-M4 and S690 (Carbon Steels); M390 (SS) are all steels that in their sweet spot deliver >40J with a very good to great edge holding, IMHO.
 
daberti said:
Well, if you're after the combination you mentioned 3V, 4V, Vanadis 4E, CPM-M4 and S690 (Carbon Steels); M390 (SS) are all steels that in their sweet spot deliver >40J with a very good to great edge holding, IMHO.
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I'm pretty sure there are only 3 on that list that hit >40J at 59 to 62 HRC: 3V, 4V, and Vanadis 4E.

Lateral strength is pretty important, too. I'm not talking about prying. I'm talking about toughness to resist cracking and chipping, strength to resist rolling/ plastic deformation (not just hardness alone), and wear resistance. Very few steels meet that combination. Off the top of my head the only steels that can meet those three in one package are 3V at 58 to 60, 4V/V4E at 58 to 61, and maybe cruwear at 60 to 62 HRC. 4V/V4E at that hardness having the highest abrasive and adhesive wear resistance while still having appropriate levels of strength and toughness. Put A11 in a cutting test with soft, abrasive material and it'll come out ahead. Put S7 in a chopping test and it'll come out ahead. Put 4V/V4E in an everyday test where various and wide ranging media needs to be cut in less than ideal circumstances, I honestly believe it'll come out on top, followed by 3V/Z-Wear/Cruwear/PD1, then M4, with M4 and the 3V class running neck and neck for utility work, ie, sometimes you need toughness and strength, sometimes you need wear resistance.

I don't believe many, if any, stainless steels can take the amount of hard work as the aforementioned tool/carbon steels while still retaining a good to excellent edge. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure M390 has <=half the toughness of 4V at the same hardness and about the same as M4, but with less wear resistance than M4.

Don't get me wrong, it's quite probably true that M390 and Elmax are some of the toughest and strongest stainless knife steels that still have very good to excellent wear resistance, but they don't hold much water, pun intended, compared to the 3V/4V classes cutting a wide assortment of media using harsh cutting methods.

Please refer to my ZT 0180 Hard Use Test. There was very little edge damage after cutting random media that would have wrecked a lot of other steels. I don't have calipers or I'd measure the thickness behind the edge. It's not ridiculously thick. ZT has never been accused of being the best in heat treating their steels. I can only imagine what an all purpose utility knife with 4V/V4E steel heat treated by someone like Phil Wilson would do.

The real problem is there's no way to test for everyday utility work without pushing a knife beyond its capabilities and ruining its value due to irreparable damage. Charpy test damage can be repaired. Rockwell test damage can be repaired. Cardboard cutting damage can be repaired. And on top of that, those tests can all be replicated. The fact, though, is that they're not helpful in determining the best all around steel for knives meant to work hard unless all of those test results are available from neutral third parties and they're not.
 
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bodog said:
I'm pretty sure there are only 3 on that list that hit >40J at 59 to 62 HRC: 3V, 4V, and Vanadis 4E.

Lateral strength is pretty important, too. I'm not talking about prying. I'm talking about toughness to resist cracking and chipping, strength to resist rolling/ plastic deformation (not just hardness alone), and wear resistance. Very few steels meet that combination. Off the top of my head the only steels that can meet those three in one package are 3V at 58 to 60, 4V/V4E at 58 to 61, and maybe cruwear at 60 to 62 HRC. 4V/V4E at that hardness having the highest abrasive and adhesive wear resistance while still having appropriate levels of strength and toughness. Put A11 in a cutting test with soft, abrasive material and it'll come out ahead. Put S7 in a chopping test and it'll come out ahead. Put 4V/V4E in an everyday test where various and wide ranging media needs to be cut in less than ideal circumstances, I honestly believe it'll come out on top, followed by 3V/Z-Wear/Cruwear/PD1, then M4, with M4 and the 3V class running neck and neck for utility work, ie, sometimes you need toughness and strength, sometimes you need wear resistance.

I don't believe many, if any, stainless steels can take the amount of hard work as the aforementioned tool/carbon steels while still retaining a good to excellent edge. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure M390 has <=half the toughness of 4V at the same hardness and about the same as M4, but with less wear resistance than M4.

Don't get me wrong, it's quite probably true that M390 and Elmax are some of the toughest and strongest stainless knife steels that still have very good to excellent wear resistance, but they don't hold much water, pun intended, compared to the 3V/4V classes cutting a wide assortment of media using harsh cutting methods.

Please refer to my ZT 0180 Hard Use Test. There was very little edge damage after cutting random media that would have wrecked a lot of other steels. I don't have calipers or I'd measure the thickness behind the edge. It's not ridiculously thick. ZT has never been accused of being the best in heat treating their steels. I can only imagine what an all purpose utility knife with 4V/V4E steel heat treated by someone like Phil Wilson would do.

The real problem is there's no way to test for everyday utility work without pushing a knife beyond its capabilities and ruining its value due to irreparable damage. Charpy test damage can be repaired. Rockwell test damage can be repaired. Cardboard cutting damage can be repaired. And on top of that, those tests can all be replicated. The fact, though, is that they're not helpful in determining the best all around steel for knives meant to work hard unless all of those test results are available from neutral third parties and they're not.
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Buddy, of course carbon steels are implicitly tougher, but in my more than thirty years long knife usage I've seen more than a epic failure fro Carbon Steels in the form mainly of pitting rust. 3V is a very good steel IF you're NOT facing heavily damp or chlorinated environments. Lot of trekking I did in Tuscany no far than 3km as the crow flies from the seashore, when water with me was meant to be drunk and not to clean my knife. Getting an PVD or passivated 3V was meaning to break my bank vault. The classic no no.
CPM-M4 and equivalents are quite quite better (ask Surferingo) and I did already explain why, obviously quitting some toughness. But if you compare 3V, 4V and CPM-M4 into the 4V datasheet you can easily get the Whole picture: i.e. 4V has some sense when at 62 (when as a side effect Cr carbides will be nil and all Moly will be available for pitting resistance). Even at that level edge holding won't be any close to CPM-M4 at same hardness, toughness will be 49J against 43J and stain/pitting resistance way less.

Elmax has 43J at 63 with a CERTAIN HT procedure that drops retained cementite to nil.
M390 has 43J when low tempered, always with a CERTAIN HT.
Reference: Institute of Metallurgy of Zurich (6th International Tooling Conference)
[et infra the publication REFERENCES]
[1] G. Hackl, H. Lenger, J. Sammer, H. Makovec:"Pulvermetallurgische Herstellung,
Gef¨ugezust¨ande und Eigenschaften des h¨ochstlegierten, korrosionbest¨andigen Kunststoffformenstahles
B¨OHLER M390 ISOMATRIX", BHM 140, 1995, H.1, p.68
[2] R. Breitler, J. Mayerhofer:"Superclean tool steel for TV-panel production", Proc.4 th
International Conference on Tooling, Ruhr-Universit¨at Bochum, 1996, p.287
[3] H. Ian, J. Sammer, M. Gstettner, K. Leban, I. Jung:"B¨OHLER M340 - A new development
in the field of corrosion resistant plastic mould steels" Proc.4 th International
Conference on Tooling, Ruhr-Universit¨at Bochum, 1996, p.297
[4] G. Lichtenegger, R. Schneider, J. Sammer, G. Schirninger, P. W¨urzinger, J. Neuherz:
"Development of a nitrogen alloyed tool steel" Proc. 5th International Conference on
Tooling, University of Leoben, Austria, 1999, p.643
[5] ASTM G65, current edition Oct.,1981

Worth mentioning that in all of this literature toughness is the lateral one.

So, my neck knife is 3V, my EDC knives are S30V/S35VN/S125V/CPM-M4/M390 (customs) none of them below 61 and CPM-M4/M390 beyond 63, S125V only is kept at 0.026"TBE and 20° per side, the others well below in both values.
No edge turning, chipping, breaking inso far.
 
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daberti said:
Buddy, of course carbon steels are implicitly tougher, but in my more than thirty years long knife usage I've seen more than a epic failure fro Carbon Steels in the form mainly of pitting rust. 3V is a very good steel IF you're NOT facing heavily damp or chlorinated environments. Lot of trekking I did in Tuscany no far than 3km as the crow flies from the seashore, when water with me was meant to be drunk and not to clean my knife. Getting an PVD or passivated 3V was meaning to break my bank vault. The classic no no.
CPM-M4 and equivalents are quite quite better (ask Surferingo) and I did already explain why, obviously quitting some toughness. But if you compare 3V, 4V and CPM-M4 into the 4V datasheet you can easily get the Whole picture: i.e. 4V has some sense when at 62 (when as a side effect Cr carbides will be nil and all Moly will be available for pitting resistance). Even at that level edge holding won't be any close to CPM-M4 at same hardness, toughness will be 49J against 43J and stain/pitting resistance way less.

Elmax has 43J at 63 with a CERTAIN HT procedure that drops retained cementite to nil.
M390 has 43J when low tempered, always with a CERTAIN HT.
Reference: Institute of Metallurgy of Zurich (6th International Tooling Conference)
[et infra the publication REFERENCES]
[1] G. Hackl, H. Lenger, J. Sammer, H. Makovec:"Pulvermetallurgische Herstellung,
Gef¨ugezust¨ande und Eigenschaften des h¨ochstlegierten, korrosionbest¨andigen Kunststoffformenstahles
B¨OHLER M390 ISOMATRIX", BHM 140, 1995, H.1, p.68
[2] R. Breitler, J. Mayerhofer:"Superclean tool steel for TV-panel production", Proc.4 th
International Conference on Tooling, Ruhr-Universit¨at Bochum, 1996, p.287
[3] H. Ian, J. Sammer, M. Gstettner, K. Leban, I. Jung:"B¨OHLER M340 - A new development
in the field of corrosion resistant plastic mould steels" Proc.4 th International
Conference on Tooling, Ruhr-Universit¨at Bochum, 1996, p.297
[4] G. Lichtenegger, R. Schneider, J. Sammer, G. Schirninger, P. W¨urzinger, J. Neuherz:
"Development of a nitrogen alloyed tool steel" Proc. 5th International Conference on
Tooling, University of Leoben, Austria, 1999, p.643
[5] ASTM G65, current edition Oct.,1981

Worth mentioning that in all of this literature toughness is the lateral one.

So, my neck knife is 3V, my EDC knives are S30V/S35VN/S125V/CPM-M4/M390 (customs) none of them below 61 and CPM-M4/M390 beyond 63, S125V only is kept at 0.026"TBE and 20° per side, the others well below in both values.
No edge turning, chipping, breaking inso far.
Click to expand...

I won't claim to know much, especially German, but I'm looking at the references you cite and they're all made before a lot of the steels you're talking about were first produced. Were elmax, m390, 4V, Vanadis 4E, S35VN, et al, in production back in 1995?
 
Obviously not all of them, mate. The references just are there to define Plastic Mould Steels as they were BEFOREHAND.
In the analysis also D2 and S90V are mentioned....
I put them (references) for sake of completeness.
Nonetheless Elmax and M390 can gladly trespass 40J (lateral) at 62+.
 
daberti said:
Obviously not all of them, mate. The references just are there to define Plastic Mould Steels as they were BEFOREHAND.
In the analysis also D2 and S90V are mentioned....
I put them (references) for sake of completeness.
Nonetheless Elmax and M390 can gladly trespass 40J (lateral) at 62+.
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Bohler Uddelholm disagrees:
http://www.bucorp.com/media/Toughness_testing_for_knife_steels.pdf

And here's another more in depth look at several steels including M390 and Elmax and both barely breach 40J at full toughness.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...UDXqL9qQx6pb2wb4w&sig2=WuaAaJvUtgpw_jdQ3wQNcQ
 
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That's a very old and preliminary (to some extents) datasheet.
BU actually posted very conservative HT.
May I ask you I.e. how much hardness in your opinion is M390 capable to reach?

See ya tomorrow mate [emoji106]

EDIT:
Right from that Swiss datasheet you mentioned.....
Toughness.jpg

43J it is NOT "barely breaking". As far as I do know only M390 and Elmax reach that in SS realm.
SS with the same thoughness of CPM-M4 at same hardness of ca 62, and shy of 6J when 4V is at 62 BUT with loads more stain and corrosion resistance, nearly the same edge holding of CPM-M4 and more than 4V at such hardness, the point is that if there is something that CPM-M4@62 can fullfill AND some real SS performance is required without loosing any toughness, than M390 is there.
For a chopping knife in salted/damp environment I'd go with a different steel altogether, properly HTd.

A more updated M390 datasheet:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gnkt4hr3mmrdtds/Bohler M390DE.pdf?dl=0
 
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Yes, I concur that if wear and corrosion resistance are primary considerations then M390 and Elmax are both top contenders. Take corrosion resistance out of the equation where pure wear resistance is necessary to cut something like plastic where toughness isnt a major concern and M4 would be better. If you need a highly wear resistant steel that is capable of high stress side loading and impact toughness that also has superb wear resistance, then 4V comes in. Each steel has their merits but I don't see many downsides to 4V unless you need high corrosion resistance. Like many things, the best steel isn't necessarily the one that's the best at a certain thing, it's the one with the fewest faults. Like a dog show, the one with the fewest faults wins rather than one that has the best gait or tooth structure or whatever, unless the competion starts being about a specific trait. M390, 3V, and 4V are all top contenders with few faults, obviously. It then just becomes about the job they're made to do.

At a certain point it just has to be realized that with M390, 3V, 4V, etc., they're all great all around performers and the individual needs come into play. I don't need much corrosion resistance, never had a problem with it and I don't fish or dive so high wear resistance and high toughness and strength become my benchmarks. With 4V having better toughness, strength, and wear resistance then to me 4V is a better steel for my uses on an average day than M390. I can see how some people need corrosion resistance and if they do I can see how M390 or elmax would be better. I feel like I'm saying common sense stuff that's already been established time and again.
 
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bodog said:
Yes, I concur that if wear and corrosion resistance are primary considerations then M390 and Elmax are both top contenders. Take corrosion resistance out of the equation where pure wear resistance is necessary to cut something like plastic where toughness isnt a major concern and M4 would be better. If you need a highly wear resistant steel that is capable of high stress side loading and impact toughness that also has superb wear resistance, then 4V comes in. Each steel has their merits but I don't see many downsides to 4V unless you need high corrosion resistance. Like many things, the best steel isn't necessarily the one that's the best at a certain thing, it's the one with the fewest faults. Like a dog show, the one with the fewest faults wins rather than one that has the best gait or tooth structure or whatever, unless the competion starts being about a specific trait. M390, 3V, and 4V are all top contenders with few faults, obviously. It then just becomes about the job they're made to do.

At a certain point it just has to be realized that with M390, 3V, 4V, etc., they're all great all around performers and the individual needs come into play. I don't need much corrosion resistance, never had a problem with it and I don't fish or dive so high wear resistance and high toughness and strength become my benchmarks. With 4V having better toughness, strength, and wear resistance then to me 4V is a better steel for my uses on an average day than M390. I can see how some people need corrosion resistance and if they do I can see how M390 or elmax would be better. I feel like I'm saying common sense stuff that's already been established time and again.
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So, you don't need too much corrosion resistance and we can somehow agree that 4V has 6J more of toughness when compared to CPM-M4 when both at 62.
I simply couldn't use that steel -that it is very interesting admittedly enough- in my trekking sessions because I do need more stain/corrosion resistance.

One question though: did you purchase customs knives in 4V or production ones? Could you please point me (via PM) to a 4V knifemaker? Just asking.

Thanks in advance
 
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