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Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope
- Thread starter Ankerson
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Ankerson
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Oh, same here.
Normal kitchen knives don't do very well in my testing..... Production knives that is.
Tested a few here and there over the years and they just lose the edge very fast, but that makes since because they are generally lower alloy steels at lower hardness ranges so they are easy to sharpen, think Suzy homemaker types.... Normal people.
I think we would have to get into the Shun range or higher to really see something, very thin and very hard.
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Hi Ankerson,
Firstly I wanted to acknowledge the effort - information - you provide to all of us out here. As a novice -- but addicted knifemaker who has stopped lurking in the background and joined the forum, I am sure I am not alone in saying thanks.
My question relates to the actual # (or range) of cuts for each of the categories under your first set of tests. I have been looking through the threads but could not find them. I see where this data was referenced against each of the knives later in the coarse test. Do you have the breakdown for the categories with respect to number of cuts?
Firstly I wanted to acknowledge the effort - information - you provide to all of us out here. As a novice -- but addicted knifemaker who has stopped lurking in the background and joined the forum, I am sure I am not alone in saying thanks.
My question relates to the actual # (or range) of cuts for each of the categories under your first set of tests. I have been looking through the threads but could not find them. I see where this data was referenced against each of the knives later in the coarse test. Do you have the breakdown for the categories with respect to number of cuts?
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Ouch, SG-2 did poor. What knife was it?
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That's a thick edge for Phil's knives. What model was it ? If you don't mind me asking.
Matt
chiral.grolim
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And only 59 Rc? I thought the whole point of BD1N was to give higher hardness ~62Rc vs BD1 steel... Still, it did a little better than some other knives in higher-carbide steels that I'd expect to have similar geometry... *shrug*
Ankerson
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Was a test knife.
Something to do with nitrides from the information that I have and was told.
Ken Onion was telling me about it at Blade and spoke with Phil a few times also about it.
Interesting steel.
Was a test knife.
Something to do with nitrides from the information that I have and was told.
Ken Onion was telling me about it at Blade and spoke with Phil a few times also about it.
Interesting steel.
I won't make it long, but once again Phil made it a homerun from a very basic steel!
0.20" BTH against 0.06" BTH AEB-L both at 60 and a 23.5% difference it is something
We are scoring 440C level edge holding performances (custom) with headroom to improve and far more corrosion resistance with a finer grain, with an inexpensive steel which has similar HT of 440C.
N probably will make very few if any nitrides here, both for its very low amount, the relatively high C content in comparison and, finally, to the fact that Cr nitrides are not that easy to form. Yet the high achievable hardness makes me thinking that we are close (at 63HRC) to 0.6 C in solid solution and no more than 6%-7% overall carbide+ (in case) nitride content.
Also N has some effects on hardness as far as corrosion resistance.
http://www.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=kts&NM=202
Bottom line: with less than 1%C, >15%Cr and 0.5%Moly I would HT at 1066°C just to avoid M23C6 Cr carbides, which take C and Cr away from solid solution.
http://cartech.ides.com/ImageDispla...ss1.gif&IMGTITLE=Effects+on+Hardness+(1+of+2)
http://cartech.ides.com/ImageDispla...ss2.gif&IMGTITLE=Effects+on+Hardness+(2+of+2)
Ankerson
Knife and Computer Geek
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I won't make it long, but once again Phil made it a homerun from a very basic steel!
0.20" BTH against 0.06" BTH AEB-L both at 60 and a 23.5% difference it is something
We are scoring 440C level edge holding performances (custom) with headroom to improve and far more corrosion resistance with a finer grain, with an inexpensive steel which has similar HT of 440C.
N probably will make very few if any nitrides here, both for its very low amount, the relatively high C content in comparison and, finally, to the fact that Cr nitrides are not that easy to form. Yet the high achievable hardness makes me thinking that we are close (at 63HRC) to 0.6 C in solid solution and no more than 6%-7% overall carbide+ (in case) nitride content.
Also N has some effects on hardness as far as corrosion resistance.
http://www.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=kts&NM=202
Bottom line: with less than 1%C, >15%Cr and 0.5%Moly I would HT at 1066°C just to avoid M23C6 Cr carbides, which take C and Cr away from solid solution.
http://cartech.ides.com/ImageDispla...ss1.gif&IMGTITLE=Effects+on+Hardness+(1+of+2)
http://cartech.ides.com/ImageDispla...ss2.gif&IMGTITLE=Effects+on+Hardness+(2+of+2)
Yeah and especially since it and others were tested for sharpness on my Sharpness tester before and after cutting the rope, and yes a pattern is starting to develop number wise.
chiral.grolim
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I expect the Para 2, Military, & Sebenza to all have similar edge-geometry (maybe a little thicker) but in Elmax, M390, S35VN - at least double the carbide content, same martensite hardness... The guy is skilled
Should I say it once more? Phil rules [emoji106]��
And once again thanks to Jim.
I was nearly missing a point: HT it is everything, a super steel badge alone is good for marketing departments alone [emoji49]
Avoiding these knives has become second nature to me...
And once again thanks to Jim.
I was nearly missing a point: HT it is everything, a super steel badge alone is good for marketing departments alone [emoji49]
Avoiding these knives has become second nature to me...
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on_the_edge
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I respectfully disagree with this statement. Heat treat, edge geometry, and steel composition all contribute to the ultimate performance of a knife. If heat treat and edge geometry are equal as between two different knives, the steel composition of each blade will play a significant role in determining which will cut longer.
As far as avoiding knives with blades of a particular steel composition, to each his own.
You misunderstood my statement mate
I'm not avoiding production blades with a super-steel by standard, should you take your time to read all of my well documented posts in this thread you'll soon find out what I meant to say.
Back to facts: by Jim's results a simple straightfoward no-nonsense BD1N blade at 60 with lot of headroom to improve (it can reach 63) outguns by more than 31% the hyped and uselessly expensive Sebbie in S35VN with nearly same TBE, and it did at a cutting test that favours abrasive resistance, where MC V based carbides should excel. Period. End of story.
The metallurgical reasons behind that are quite clear to me AND I tried to share my knowledge in this thread.
Of all the known brands I know of using super-steels from CTS-XHP to S125V and consequently ask a steeper price for that, I currently trust two: Cold-Steel (Ultimate Hunter) and another one from Italy which I'd mentioned already here.
Why? Please read my former posts
So in the end this definitely recalls once again my shooting range experience, where another shooter tried to convince me that 50AE was better than 45ACP.
In the time he was slapped down (nose smashed and bleeding) trying a double tap and striving to stand up again I put all of my 13 rounds where they should have been put.
50AE can be better in some instances, but it needs higher skills
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You mean a super steel without the skills will be worse than a normal steel without the skills?
on_the_edge
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You twisted my statement mate
I'm not avoiding production blades with a super-steel by standard, should you take your time to read all of my well documented posts in this thread you'll soon find out what I meant to say.
Back to facts: by Jim's results a simple straightfoward no-nonsense BD1N blade at 58 with lot of headroom to improve (it can reach 63) outguns by more than 31% the hyped and uselessly expensive Sebbie in S35VN with nearly same TBE, and it did at a cutting test that favours abrasive resistance, where MC V based carbides should excel. Period. End of story.
The metallurgical reasons behind that are quite clear to me AND I tried to share my knowledge in this thread.
Of all the known brands I know of using super-steels from CTS-XHP to S125V and consequently ask a steeper price for that, I currently trust two: Cold-Steel (Ultimate Hunter) and another one from Italy which I'd mentioned already here.
Why? Please read my former posts
So in the end this definitely recalls once again my shooting range experience, where another shooter tried to convince me that 50AE was better than 45ACP.
In the time he was slapped down (nose smashed and bleeding) trying a double tap and striving to stand up again I put all of my 13 rounds where they should have been put.
50AE can be better in some instances, but it needs higher skills
For the record, I have read every post in this thread, but with nearly 2800 of them, my memory isn't near what it needs to be in order to remember everything that you have said. No matter, if you recant the statement that I was commenting on or are modifying it then it helps to clarify your position for everyone. I doubt that I am the only reader who took your statements in post 2756 literally. So thank you for the clarification.
Now let's get back to our regularly scheduled program...