Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Bringing this back on topic. Thanks very much to Ankerson for all his hard work. I really appreciate the time and effort he has spent and find the results interesting and helpful.

I love the fact that one can see how the different steels perform in the same knife and how the same steel can vary so much depending on heat treat and geometry. :) This thread has helped me buy some of the best knives performing knives I have ever owned.

Thank you!!!!
 
Last edited:
I'm going to send Jim my HAP40 Endura after the holidays. Pretty happy with this steel so far, excited to see how it does with his test setup.
 
Last edited:
Also back on topic, I'm going to send Jim my HAP40 Endura after the holidays. Pretty happy with this steel so far, excited to see how it does with his test setup.

Have you used other high speed steels? If so, how does HAP40 compare to it/them?
 
Have you used other high speed steels? If so, how does HAP40 compare to it/them?
I'm not positive I know all the HSS out there, but CPM M4 is the only other one I have used to my knowledge. It's similar feeling in touching up and maybe a bit quicker to respond, seems to have more corrosion resistance, takes a fine edge like M4. If you pull Crucible's data sheet on CPM REX45 (same as HAP40), you can see a great chart comparing other HSS. Won't be as tough, but should have better wear resistance than M4. My guess is it will have high 20's low 30's joules on the Charpy C-notch based on what I am guessing Spyderco will run the hardness (64-65). Seems to be a fine grain, keen edge holding, easy to maintain steel. Keep in mind this comes from limited use without a reprofiling done yet.
 
Also back on topic, I'm going to send Jim my HAP40 Endura after the holidays. Pretty happy with this steel so far, excited to see how it does with his test setup.

Any Idea about its hardness??

HAP40 it is just like BU Vanadis30. so an AISI M3:2+Co grade
That steel scores an insanely high content of Cobalt to insure together with W red hardness.
The point in cutlery applications is that so much Co is useless. Up to 2%Co lowers grain size and raise the Ms (Martensite start) temperature.

Edge retention wise it has 1.3% more carbides than M 3:2 at 15.7% against 14.4% (V and W carbides with austenitizing at 1200°C and before tempering) and 3.1% more carbides than CPM-M4 (V and W carbides with austenitizing at 1200°C and before tempering).
At these specs and with 3x1h at 560°C tempers it should definitely be in the 67HRC realm

It should give about 20-30% better edge retention than Cpm-m4 at 65 (with same edge angle and blade geometry), either in adesive wear resistance AND in abrasive wear resistance. Point being that toughness will be lower than the one of of CPM-10V grade @63-65HRC
 
Last edited:
Daberti, where are you finding the carbide volumes at the austenized states?

uuuhh that should be a trade secret :D
I'm just kidding :)
Google for "Bohler-Carbide Dissolution Rate And Carbide Content in Highly Alloyed Tool Steels"

Dan
 
Dan,
I'll bet some money Spyderco won't hit 67. I guessed 64-65. Toughness will be lower compared to M4, but overall that doesn't tell the whole story. What I appreciate most in a folder is edge stability and fine edge holding. When an edge goes dull to my feel, I don't think it's from wearing. For me, i think its from micro edge damage/deformation. I don't think I have ever dulled S110V wear resistance wise. I think it's always been a breakdown, not uniformly of the edge. That's why Jim's test doesn't tell the whole story, but a controlled part of the story isolating wear. My favorite steel is CRUWEAR, but it's low on Jim's list. I like it because it takes my beatings well.

Very interesting about the Cobalt, I'll have to read that a few more times. What factors metallurgically affect edge stability? Laterally and compressively if different. I want to pin point metallurgically what I like.
 
Dan,
I'll bet some money Spyderco won't hit 67. I guessed 64-65. Toughness will be lower compared to M4, but overall that doesn't tell the whole story. What I appreciate most in a folder is edge stability and fine edge holding. When an edge goes dull to my feel, I don't think it's from wearing. For me, i think its from micro edge damage/deformation. I don't think I have ever dulled S110V wear resistance wise. I think it's always been a breakdown, not uniformly of the edge. That's why Jim's test doesn't tell the whole story, but a controlled part of the story isolating wear. My favorite steel is CRUWEAR, but it's low on Jim's list. I like it because it takes my beatings well.

Very interesting about the Cobalt, I'll have to read that a few more times. What factors metallurgically affect edge stability? Laterally and compressively if different. I want to pin point metallurgically what I like.

Jim's work has to be done in a very controlled way, wouldn't you immagine all the following flaming otherwise?

You said microchipping and I'm in. Then mate lets follow this reasoning: HAP40 and equivalents just not take the punishment that even the CPM-10V takes (lateral toughness wise).
And you said edge stability: long I talked about this factor. If you have many carbides these have to be in a very hard martensitic Matrix, or they "fall off".
Would you like me to make a name (same I made to Phil Wilson, BTW)? BU K390. Great wear resistance (very close to CPM-10V), very good toughness that when both at 62HRC it is slightly superior to CPM-M4 (>42J), and corrosion resistance on par or superior to 3V (if K390 is austenitized > than 1150°C). Great overall balance.

If you will to learn further on metallurgy, I do encourage you to get a hold of Prof. Verhoeven's book so many time recurring in this thread.

Dan
 
Just to be clear, I wasn't critiquing Jim's test. Just understanding what it is and isn't is important. I found a PDF of the book. I do have an MET degree, but admittedly was not interested in blade steels at the time and hated that class. I do have the K390 mule, but have not put it through any hard work, so can't really compare and contest. Same with 10V, I have the Spyderco K2, but haven't really used it.
 
Just to be clear, I wasn't critiquing Jim's test. Just understanding what it is and isn't is important. I found a PDF of the book. I do have an MET degree, but admittedly was not interested in blade steels at the time and hated that class. I do have the K390 mule, but have not put it through any hard work, so can't really compare and contest. Same with 10V, I have the Spyderco K2, but haven't really used it.

I know you was NOT criticizing Jim :)
uhhmm: I'd be entirely spoiled to learn the K390 Mule could potentially be in excess of real 63 and with deep cryo and proper heat treating, well, to be clear I had a glad departure from this brand :mad:
They failed doing i.e. on Dice/Domino/Techno blades what Cold Steel did with Ultimate Hunter at a fraction of cost.

Dan
 
Last edited:
Interesting results here with VG1 vs VG10.

Much to my surprise, VG1 seems to perform better here (at least within the parameters of this test).
 
Interesting results here with VG1 vs VG10.

Much to my surprise, VG1 seems to perform better here (at least within the parameters of this test).

Please note, you may be looking at the polished-edge section of Jim's tests (admittedly the bulk of the text) which is an older method. I don't think those two steels have been compared in the coarse-edge section yet.
 
Have you used other high speed steels? If so, how does HAP40 compare to it/them?

Hey guys, I checked this thread because I wanted to see if anyone was reporting any results of their hap40 usage and, sure enough...

I received a Hap40 Delica a couple of weeks ago and have done some sharpening and testing on 5/8" hemp rope. I have carried the knife as an "edc" the whole time but honestly, outside of fish cleaning I just don't use my pocket knife too much so it takes me a long time to build even a rough idea of steel performance. What I can pass along is my experience so far in sharpening and rope cutting.

Hap40 sharpens to a very keen edge with minimal fuss. A microbevel takes it to screaming sharp in just a few passes and it seems to be more forgiving to my technique than steels like s110v and s90v. I haven't polished the edge yet but given how sharp this steel gets off a 1200 dmt I am confident that it can be taken to hht sharpness with another 60 seconds of refinement. I am able to get a bit higher level of initial sharpness out of m4 than I am from s90v/s110v, and a hap40 easily goes to the next level beyond that. I'd put it more in line with Hitachi's super blue in ability to take high level sharpness.

As far as rope cutting, I have only done one test and it isn't much like how jim does his tests so I'm not sure if anyone will find this useful. Rather than trying to test to a determined level of sharpness (or dullness) I make a large number of cuts with two knives and measure sharpness after the cutting. In this example, I compared the hap40 Delica to a Manix 2 in s110v. Both were finished on a 1200 grit dmt and both would grab beard hair on contact. Well, the s110v would grab and the hap40 would bite into it like a pitbull. I tried everything to get the s110v to that exact level and just couldn't quiiiiite get it there so went ahead and ran the test. What was immediately apparent was that geometry was going to make the test unfair. The Manix is much thicker stock and thicker behind the edge than the thinly ground sprint run Delica (thinner even than the standard Delica I believe). There was a notable difference in force and pressure required from the first cut that was obviously due to blade geometry.

I used 5/8" hemp and would make a 4 slice motion...forward/back/forward/back. I could easily cut the rope with one motion but I'm trying to create wear as quickly as possible so i do the sawing motion. After 80 cuts (which is 320 back and forth motions) I tested the two steels. The hap40 edge had significantly more bite. Both would still shave but the s110v required more pressure...almost scrape shaving. Both would still cleanly slice magazine paper but the hap40 made a significantly cleaner cut. The s110v wanted to snag just a tiny bit in a couple of places.

FWIW, I have tested s30v in the same way and both of these steels outperformed it. I have also done the same testing with an m4 custom (Gayle Bradley Flipper) that is ground to .010-.012 bte. M4 at that grind was comparable to the more thick s110v blade but under performed the hap40 Delica, which though thinly ground is still thicker than the m4 custom.

My thoughts on this steel so far are very favorable. I like high edge retention and wear resistance but not at the cost of ease of sharpening and initial sharpness level. That is why my preferences sometimes lean towards the slightly less wear resistant steels. I believe this is the best steel I have used as far as giving great edge retention while remaining very easy to bring to high level sharpness. One of my favorites for this combination of qualities has long been m4 but from what I have seen so far, hap40 outperforms it in both areas. It is capable of achieving higher initial sharpness (given my ability and protocol) and so far is showing better edge retention.
 
Last edited:
Surf,
a real advantage of CPM-M4, and other W+V (and very small percentage of Moly carbides if any) steels like HAP40 and BU equiparable grades is that carbide size it is very very fine. S90V and S110V have bigger indeed ones, even bigger has S125V.
Where AISI 3:2 + Co does NOT get me in is that to deliver a noticeable advantage in edge retention compared against CPM-M4 (20%more) it needs to be very close to its upper HRC range, having very poor toughness. As I've already said a well HTd K390 will easily outperform it under ANY aspect, with just a hair bit more effort in touching up.
Regrinding is another story ;)
 
Last edited:
What a fascinating thread! No, I did not read all of it, but I did get to page 61 before I got impatient and went to the end. I have very little experience with knives and steel. I have made several knives in my garage from old files so I can appreciate the work involved for sure. I am new to the forum and this thread helped me settle on a Benchmade 810 plain edge CPM-M4 steel knife. So thank you to everybody and especially to Ankerson for all the work this must have been.....
 
Hey guys, I checked this thread because I wanted to see if anyone was reporting any results of their hap40 usage and, sure enough...

I received a Hap40 Delica a couple of weeks ago and have done some sharpening and testing on 5/8" hemp rope. I have carried the knife as an "edc" the whole time but honestly, outside of fish cleaning I just don't use my pocket knife too much so it takes me a long time to build even a rough idea of steel performance. What I can pass along is my experience so far in sharpening and rope cutting.

Hap40 sharpens to a very keen edge with minimal fuss. A microbevel takes it to screaming sharp in just a few passes and it seems to be more forgiving to my technique than steels like s110v and s90v. I haven't polished the edge yet but given how sharp this steel gets off a 1200 dmt I am confident that it can be taken to hht sharpness with another 60 seconds of refinement. I am able to get a bit higher level of initial sharpness out of m4 than I am from s90v/s110v, and a hap40 easily goes to the next level beyond that. I'd put it more in line with Hitachi's super blue in ability to take high level sharpness.

As far as rope cutting, I have only done one test and it isn't much like how jim does his tests so I'm not sure if anyone will find this useful. Rather than trying to test to a determined level of sharpness (or dullness) I make a large number of cuts with two knives and measure sharpness after the cutting. In this example, I compared the hap40 Delica to a Manix 2 in s110v. Both were finished on a 1200 grit dmt and both would grab beard hair on contact. Well, the s110v would grab and the hap40 would bite into it like a pitbull. I tried everything to get the s110v to that exact level and just couldn't quiiiiite get it there so went ahead and ran the test. What was immediately apparent was that geometry was going to make the test unfair. The Manix is much thicker stock and thicker behind the edge than the thinly ground sprint run Delica (thinner even than the standard Delica I believe). There was a notable difference in force and pressure required from the first cut that was obviously due to blade geometry.

I used 5/8" hemp and would make a 4 slice motion...forward/back/forward/back. I could easily cut the rope with one motion but I'm trying to create wear as quickly as possible so i do the sawing motion. After 80 cuts (which is 320 back and forth motions) I tested the two steels. The hap40 edge had significantly more bite. Both would still shave but the s110v required more pressure...almost scrape shaving. Both would still cleanly slice magazine paper but the hap40 made a significantly cleaner cut. The s110v wanted to snag just a tiny bit in a couple of places.

FWIW, I have tested s30v in the same way and both of these steels outperformed it. I have also done the same testing with an m4 custom (Gayle Bradley Flipper) that is ground to .010-.012 bte. M4 at that grind was comparable to the more thick s110v blade but under performed the hap40 Delica, which though thinly ground is still thicker than the m4 custom.

My thoughts on this steel so far are very favorable. I like high edge retention and wear resistance but not at the cost of ease of sharpening and initial sharpness level. That is why my preferences sometimes lean towards the slightly less wear resistant steels. I believe this is the best steel I have used as far as giving great edge retention while remaining very easy to bring to high level sharpness. One of my favorites for this combination of qualities has long been m4 but from what I have seen so far, hap40 outperforms it in both areas. It is capable of achieving higher initial sharpness (given my ability and protocol) and so far is showing better edge retention.

Lance,

I have NCCOLE's HAP40 blade that I will be running to see how it does. :)
 
Back
Top