Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Zagorov said:
So - bad HT on HAP40 from Spyderco? I was hoping for about ZDP-like results.
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Yes, so bad.
BTW HAP-40 and equivalents should easily overtake by some margin the edge retention of ZDP-189 when at comparable hardness (from 65 up), blade geometry and TBE.
 
I wonder what it could be that something else [emoji48]
We're not in front of a natural born chopper.
Let's face it: its natural destination is g@@@@@e.
Clearly enough many and many people dealing with super-steels choosing plain wrong HT.
So in this case I think HAP-40 has been optimized to deliver as AEB-L [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
 
OK - it's settled then - the HAP40 Endura was optimized for chopping :D

Looking forward to the Bradley 2 - let's see what this baby will do when tested :)
 
We are basing our assessment of the hap40 line having a bad ht just on Jim's test? I have been using the steel with excellent results. I will try to pick up some rope next week and do some testing to see what's what. I've cut a bit of rope with it and I got the impression that it was outperforming my m4. I will do a more structured test soon and let you know what I find.

--No disrespect intended as I know Jim is careful with his testing. His results usually match my experience quite closely but it seems we could be seeing slightly different results with this steel...I shouldn't say that until I do the actual testing though. I'll post whatever results I get when I get off my lazy ass and get it done. :)
 
I don't think it was a bad HT at all, based on the thickness behind the edge and the V content it did well.

Not sure what the hardness was, but it's difficult to test for hardness on a laminated blade.

Saw no chipping or other issues in testing.
 
There are other tests out there (youtube) that put the HAP40 near ZDP-189 or CPM M4 in edge retention (and based on composition analysis HAP40 is very close to CPM M4 except the Cobalt, so that is something to be expected). These tests are on cardboard though, not rope.

BTW - do you plan to test the Bradley Folder 2 in the near future?
 
Zagorov said:
There are other tests out there (youtube) that put the HAP40 near ZDP-189 or CPM M4 in edge retention (and based on composition analysis HAP40 is very close to CPM M4 except the Cobalt, so that is something to be expected). These tests are on cardboard though, not rope.

BTW - do you plan to test the Bradley Folder 2 in the near future?
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People are guessing..... Not knowing what the actual HT protocol is or even the actual hardness range. ;)

M4 doesn't really do much either unless the HT is tweaked for max edge retention, would be right in the same range that HAP-40 is. ;)
 
Worth noting too is the hap40 Delica I'm using is quite thin behind the edge which I would guess could make a performance difference. I have a Gayle Bradley Flipper in m4 that is .012 behind the edge. The Delica is very close... .014-.015 would be my guess. It will be interesting to compare the two.
 
Surfingringo said:
Worth noting too is the hap40 Delica I'm using is quite thin behind the edge which I would guess could make a performance difference. I have a Gayle Bradley Flipper in m4 that is .012 behind the edge. The Delica is very close... .014-.015 would be my guess. It will be interesting to compare the two.
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Maybe I will get another one to test and run it again, I ran the Endura twice to be sure....

I can only run what I had to run.

Had the same sort of thing with ZDP-189, 1st one wasn't all that great, the 2nd one was a lot different and at 65 HRC.

Yeah .010" thinner would make a BIG DIFFERENCE.... HUGE DIFFERENCE......
 
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Ankerson said:
Maybe I will get another one to test and run it again, I ran the Endura twice to be sure....

I can only run what I had to run.

Had the same sort of thing with ZDP-189, 1st one wasn't all that great, the 2nd one was a lot different and at 65 HRC.

Yeah .010" thinner would make a BIG DIFFERENCE.... HUGE DIFFERENCE......
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I shouldn't throw those numbers out without measuring with calipers. I just checked the m4 Phil Wilson that you tested. I believe you measured that one at .015". If so then the Delica is a tad thicker than that but not much. Almost certainly thinner than the Endura though.
 
Surfingringo said:
We are basing our assessment of the hap40 line having a bad ht just on Jim's test? I have been using the steel with excellent results. I will try to pick up some rope next week and do some testing to see what's what. I've cut a bit of rope with it and I got the impression that it was outperforming my m4. I will do a more structured test soon and let you know what I find.

--No disrespect intended as I know Jim is careful with his testing. His results usually match my experience quite closely but it seems we could be seeing slightly different results with this steel...I shouldn't say that until I do the actual testing though. I'll post whatever results I get when I get off my lazy ass and get it done. :)
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It would be quite informative if you could make a comparison amongst the stain/corrosion resistance of your M4 custom knives from Phil and that HAP-40 knife.

Thanks in advance
Dan
 
Zagorov said:
There are other tests out there (youtube) that put the HAP40 near ZDP-189 or CPM M4 in edge retention (and based on composition analysis HAP40 is very close to CPM M4 except the Cobalt........
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CPM-M4 (HAP-40)
Carbon 1.42% (1.37)
Chromium 4.00% (4.7)
Vanadium 4.00% (3.3)
Tungsten 5.50% (6.5)
Molybdenum 5.25% (5.4)

When austenitized at 1200°C CPM-M4 will have Vanadium+Wolframium carbides for a 12.6% grand total. HAP-40 and equivalents will have Vanadium+Wolframium carbides for a 15.7% grand total (sources already mentioned). Slightly less than 25% more carbides of the same type (very very hard carbides).
This is QUITE some difference. We shouldn't be that far from CPM-9V edge retention also considering the hardness that HAP-40 can reach.
 
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Surfingringo said:
I shouldn't throw those numbers out without measuring with calipers. I just checked the m4 Phil Wilson that you tested. I believe you measured that one at .015". If so then the Delica is a tad thicker than that but not much. Almost certainly thinner than the Endura though.
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I know, but even if it's at .018" it's still a enough of a difference to effect the results.

Time will tell and if I get another one to run we will see what that one does.
 
I wonder if the stainless steel cladding on the Endura/Delica line has an effect on the HT - even if you follow the process closely, could it alter the core temperatures in some way that it does not get the right amount of heat, and then the right amount of cooling?....
 
Zagorov said:
I wonder if the stainless steel cladding on the Endura/Delica line has an effect on the HT - even if you follow the process closely, could it alter the core temperatures in some way that it does not get the right amount of heat, and then the right amount of cooling?....
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That sounds plausible but I have no clue how much of a difference it could make. I'm sure they run a few trials and adjusted the protocol accordingly, if they had to. Even in full production they'd take samples and test them if everything turns out as planned. Maybe just a few slipped through?
 
Zagorov said:
I wonder if the stainless steel cladding on the Endura/Delica line has an effect on the HT - even if you follow the process closely, could it alter the core temperatures in some way that it does not get the right amount of heat, and then the right amount of cooling?....
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You nailed the problem: the outside part of the clad of this knife it is NOT an hardenable steel.
Moreover, HAP-40 as every HSS steel needs very high austenitizing and tempering temps and asks for very strict HT.
In production knives' world we are talking about vacuum and (decent) gas overpressure quenching.
Here View attachment vanadis23_30_60ht_rec.pdf it is the HT spec sheet for Vanadis 23 30 and 60. Fairly complex it is. (Vanadis 30 is an equivalent of HAP-40).
Aust up to 1226.7°C tempering at 560°C, not to mention tempering immediately as tool reaches 65.5°C.
The lowest mentioned aust. temperature in that spec sheet is 1107°C and you'll be in the 64HRC realm already.
In another spec sheet at 1050°C/560°C you'll score 62HRC and honestly speaking I don't think the very tested knife will go beyond that.
This will have implications also as far as corrosion resistance is concerned.
 
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