Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

[knarfeng]

That's quite interesting. S30V does seem to be tougher than 154CM, though CPM154 seems about the same. What's surprising is that S30V seems to outperform D2 in almost all categories. I always had it in my head that D2 was supposed to be tougher having less chromium and being classified as a "tool steel".

Now I wonder if all that hype about Dozier heat treated D2 rivaling modern steels was just hype. There also seems to be more complaints about sharpening D2 compared to sharpening S30V.

I'm just curious as to how good CTS-XHP would be as a stainless version of D2 if stain resistance isn't exactly the biggest issue with D2.

In this thread, Edge Retentions of Spycerco S30V vs. VG10 vs. Buck S30V vs. Benchmade D2
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=769447
I tested S30V at 60 vs D2 at 61.6

The D2 held an edge better.

Conclusion:
So, if you were to ask me which of these alloys holds its edge the best, I would say, “D2” because it was at the top whether slicing or push-cutting. For an urban knife, D2 for sure because so many urban chores involve push cutting. But if the knife was wanted for hunting, I might recommend S30V, because it really does a superlative job of slicing (which is how I always used a hunting knife), and it is stainless. However, for the purposes of my chart, I am going to leave S30V off for the moment, because its performance varies depending on the type of cutting, which really is not true of the others.

I don't think the comments about Dozier D2 were hype. Those were always sold as "skinning knives", not "tough knives". For skinning, I'd say Dozier D2 is still excellent. I don't find D2 any harder to sharpen than S30V when using diamond hones.

 

[JNewell]

This datasheet from Crucible has a comparative chart showing their estimates of toughness, wear resistance (and grindability) for ingot D2, 154CM, CPM-154 and CPM-S30v, fwiw.

That's quite interesting. S30V does seem to be tougher than 154CM, though CPM154 seems about the same. What's surprising is that S30V seems to outperform D2 in almost all categories. I always had it in my head that D2 was supposed to be tougher having less chromium and being classified as a "tool steel".

Now I wonder if all that hype about Dozier heat treated D2 rivaling modern steels was just hype. There also seems to be more complaints about sharpening D2 compared to sharpening S30V.

I'm just curious as to how good CTS-XHP would be as a stainless version of D2 if stain resistance isn't exactly the biggest issue with D2.

 

[gunmike1]

CPM D2 at 62RC outperforms my S30V knives, which are all 58-59RC. It chips much less and takes a very crisp edge really quick and easy. It didn't shock me at all the it was in the same class as the best production S30V, but I think in real world EDC with a little rough cutting is where CPM D2 shines compared to my S30V knives. It just cuts and cuts and doesn't microchip out. The ease of sharpening (mainly when I speak about ease of sharpening I mean it takes a crisp edge, without those terrible wire edge hanging on that drives you nuts), similar if not better edge retention than the 58-59RC S30V blades I have paired with minimal chipping and plenty good corrosion resistance has me favoring CPM D2 over S30V. D2 at 62 RC does just fine as well, in rope cutting I noticed no difference between D2 at 62RC and CPM D2 at 62RC, but in theory the CPM D2 should be tougher, more corrosion resistant and take a finer edge, though I'm sure those with Doziers and other very nice D2 blades will say CPM D2 is no better in the real world. I like both versions of D2 at 62RC over any S30V I've used, but my first S30V was chippy so maybe I'm still biased against S30V, but I just think CPM D2 and D2 are better for my cutting than S30V, no matter what the steel charts say.

Mike

 

[STR]

That may well be true, but it could be due to the fact that a lot more knives, from a lot more manufacturers, have been made in S30V. This introduces a lot more variability to the quality of the heat treat. Some companies just do a better job with heat treat.

I also believe that a lot of the problems discussed on this forum and others about S30V have more to do with the propensity S30V has to form a tenacious wire edge when it is sharpened aggressively than it does to the heat treat. When the factory sharpens knives on powered equipment, my guess is they do not take the time to make sure the wire edge is gone. Sure, it may feel sharp, but go use it and see how long it takes to make it chip or roll, even with softer materials. But give it a good, proper sharpening, and a lot of the time the reported problems disappear.

I have observed a propensity for D2 to also form a tenacious wire edge when sharpened aggressively, but again, in the hands of fewer people, and not suffering from the hype that S30V suffered, you don't hear many complaints about it.

I'm not so sure about this but it probably is true that more S30V blades have been made in production knives than D2 blades. However, Benchmade, Kabar, Buck, Kershaw, Boker, Queen, Lone Wolf, Gerber, Rat, Knives of Alaska, Swamp Rat Knives, Spyderco and Camillus (before they closed their doors) and more all used D2 in some models at some point in time here in the last few years so I think it is fair to say there are a good many blades out there in this steel in production knives.

In my experience it is not uncommon for a knife, no matter the blade steel to come new and cut okay if you use the factory edge as it came right out of the box but in most every case once it is resharpened, even if left at the same angle as factory settings it most always performs the same tests better after the first sharpening. All I can figure is that the factory edge has some flaking and weaker spots due to heat treat and perhaps some uneven areas where the bevel is not quite true until its straightened up but whatever the case this has been the case for me on most every factory knife I've bought.

 

[Doughnut]

Hey Jim, thanks for your effort, the tests are very interesting.

I have been thinking about the tests you do. In my mind it seems like an oversimplified one that only tests one aspect of the steel. It is a light duty test of the steel.

All of the steels you are testing are good steels for cutting toilet paper, but probably the last steel most would choose for chopping down a tree.

I understand that it will get expensive to do a complete test of steels, but do you plan on doing tests to analyze the performance of these steels? Chipping, rolling, breaking?

I think it would be bad to overdo it, but maybe test to where the steels START chipping or rolling.

Maybe vary the tests by different types of cuts. Cardboard vs plastic vs rubber vs sandpaper.

 

[DennisStrickland]

golly jim you've worked your butt off & people keep asking for more. i really think it's time for some other people to start doing some cutting & quit asking so many questions. i for one really & truly appreciate all the efforts you have made in trying to help people choose the best alloy for the job at hand. thanks a heap jim.
dennis

 

[Phil Wilson]

Dougnut, Jim is testing the knives he worked with with in the realm that they are normally used in. If you take a look most are folders and not designed to cut down trees. They are intended to whittle wood sticks for fire kindling, open boxes, see some use in the kitchen, maybe do some field dressing on game and the like. Yes they are light to medium use cutting tools. Cutting sisal rope is a pretty tough test of an edge. Try cutting 5/8 or 3/4 rope with a thin edge up to 20lbs down pressure and you can see what I am talking about. This is more force than most would do in actual use. These tests are pretty much about edge holding, edge wear for the specific knife being tested. Jim's sharpening technique pretty much evens the playing field for sharpening and edge geometry. There are other factors like corrosion resistance and impact loading that are not considered but that is a whole other set of testing. The information presented by Jim is a excellent indication of how the knives he tested will perform in the hands of others who consider purchasing and using those specific knives. Just want to try to put some of this in perspective.. Phil

 

[Ankerson]

golly jim you've worked your butt off & people keep asking for more. i really think it's time for some other people to start doing some cutting & quit asking so many questions. i for one really & truly appreciate all the efforts you have made in trying to help people choose the best alloy for the job at hand. thanks a heap jim.
dennis

Yeah, I am taking a break from cutting right now, maybe until after the holiday's then I might start back up again testing.

Plus I don't have any test knives here right now so it's a good time for a break.

I have a few Busse chopping videos I need to shoot once the weather gets a little warmer also.

 

[Phil Wilson]

Dougnut, just another thought. Why would anyone cut sandpaper with a knife and consider this a test of anything? But if you think it is valid why don't you do this test for us. Start with 100 grit and go up to 180 grit. Maybe do this with about 20 different knives.. Phil

 

[Ankerson]

Dougnut, just another thought. Why would anyone cut sandpaper with a knife and consider this a test of anything? But if you think it is valid why don't you do this test for us. Start with 100 grit and go up to 180 grit. Maybe do this with about 20 different knives.. Phil

That would be like stabbing the knife in the ground and calling it a test. ROFL

Wouldn't tell us anything except how to get rust off the blade.

 

[Buffalohump]

I'm a fan of CPM-D2 myself. Wish more people used it. From what I can tell, Spyderco were the only production company to have ever used it.

CPM D2 at 62RC outperforms my S30V knives, which are all 58-59RC. It chips much less and takes a very crisp edge really quick and easy. It didn't shock me at all the it was in the same class as the best production S30V, but I think in real world EDC with a little rough cutting is where CPM D2 shines compared to my S30V knives. It just cuts and cuts and doesn't microchip out. The ease of sharpening (mainly when I speak about ease of sharpening I mean it takes a crisp edge, without those terrible wire edge hanging on that drives you nuts), similar if not better edge retention than the 58-59RC S30V blades I have paired with minimal chipping and plenty good corrosion resistance has me favoring CPM D2 over S30V. D2 at 62 RC does just fine as well, in rope cutting I noticed no difference between D2 at 62RC and CPM D2 at 62RC, but in theory the CPM D2 should be tougher, more corrosion resistant and take a finer edge, though I'm sure those with Doziers and other very nice D2 blades will say CPM D2 is no better in the real world. I like both versions of D2 at 62RC over any S30V I've used, but my first S30V was chippy so maybe I'm still biased against S30V, but I just think CPM D2 and D2 are better for my cutting than S30V, no matter what the steel charts say.

Mike

 

[Buffalohump]

Sandpaper? Nah...... that's a bit harsh. Cutting sandpaper would render just about any normal knife useless. Carpet knives are best for that stuff.

Maybe vary the tests by different types of cuts. Cardboard vs plastic vs rubber vs sandpaper.

 

[LorenzoL]

Great stuff, Jim.

Just a couple questions. I don't know if I missed it but I would like to know what's the degree of improvement from one category to another expressed in percentage.
Also, do you test one knife per steel or do you test several from different manufacturers and average the results?
Finally, when you test CTS-XHP try to do so on another knife than the Manix 2, I don't know what happened at Spyderco but they must have gotten something wrong with it. It is a steel I really like on all the knives I have that use it, except for the M2.

I would love to see what the results are when you include custom knives...

 

[Ankerson]

Great stuff, Jim.

Just a couple questions. I don't know if I missed it but I would like to know what's the degree of improvement from one category to another expressed in percentage.
Also, do you test one knife per steel or do you test several from different manufacturers and average the results?
Finally, when you test CTS-XHP try to do so on another knife than the Manix 2, I don't know what happened at Spyderco but they must have gotten something wrong with it. It is a steel I really like on all the knives I have that use it, except for the M2.

I would love to see what the results are when you include custom knives...

I test the knives as they come in, I haven't seen any large donations of money so I can buy a number of knives from different manufactors in each steel to test.

Knives, testing material, and sharpening supplies all cost money....

The Custom knives will never be included in that data.

 

[Davor]

A2 tool steel?

 

[DennisStrickland]

jim i do'nt believe many members understand what custom knives entail in dollars. customs run from 80$ to several thousands. i imagine that the higher end alloys made by a real competent maker would [in a unitarian model] have a base price of 350$.it is very difficult to get people off their behinds & get them out to their garages & actually get individuals to start cutting & quit cogitating.
dennis

 

[Ankerson]

jim i do'nt believe many members understand what custom knives entail in dollars. customs run from 80$ to several thousands. i imagine that the higher end alloys made by a real competent maker would [in a unitarian model] have a base price of 350$.it is very difficult to get people off their behinds & get them out to their garages & actually get individuals to start cutting & quit cogitating.
dennis

Yeah I cut with 17 knives so far not including the 3 Phil Wilson Customs. (Data not added on the Phil Wilson knives, they were reviewed separately)

So take 17 and Multiply that by an ave $225 per knife than multiply that by 3 again to have more than one knife in each steel.

Then add on a few hundred for rope and another few hundred in sharpening supplies.

It all can add up very fast.

I estimate over $10,000 just to get started on that and keeping the cost down.

13 of the 17 knives tested were my personal knives, 4 were on loan for cutting.

I cut with 4 Spyderco Militaries, 3 were mine, one was donated on a side experiment for data accuracy on the testing method.

 

[LorenzoL]

Jim, I am not telling you to go out and buy a $700 Overkill in S110V. But I understand you have some customs that you have tested with steels that are not available in productions (10V, for example). Why not include those results as a reference?

 

[Ankerson]

Jim, I am not telling you to go out and buy a $700 Overkill in S110V. But I understand you have some customs that you have tested with steels that are not available in productions (10V, for example). Why not include those results as a reference?

The 3 Phil Wilson Customs, 10V, M390 and ELMAX aren't included in the data because all 3 knives are highly optimised designs for low friction cutting developed over many years of real world field testing. Heat treated for max edge retention and toughness.

The percentage increases over the production blades in Category 1 is so high that I couldn't use the data. I would need a whole new thread just for those 3 knives.

 

[LorenzoL]

What knife are you using for testing CPM-154, a Buck 110?