Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Jim,

Thanks for the quick reply, I kinda figured as much after seeing your data.

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to change the shape of the blade of the Mule? Maybe to something like this -
XEF6Y8V.jpg


So that I can put a handle on it like this -
vUSORjR.jpg
to give me a little more reach and a gut hook to boot. The tang would only be 2/3 of the handle but I can't believe that would be a problem.

Your thoughts again would be most valuable to me before I start on such a project.

Yotee
 
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Yotee said:
Jim,

Thanks for the quick reply, I kinda figured as much after seeing your data.

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to change the shape of the blade of the Mule? Maybe to something like this -
XEF6Y8V.jpg


So that I can put a handle on it like this -
vUSORjR.jpg
to give me a little more reach and a gut hook to boot. The tang would only be 2/3 of the handle but I can't believe that would be a problem.

Your thoughts again would be most valuable to me before I start on such a project.

Yotee
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Couldn't really say, you would have to see what custom maker could make the changes etc.
 
JNewell said:
As I said, it just wouldn't yield comparable results vs. other blades tested. :)
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It makes sense to me that it would be difficult to compare draw cutting performance like this with one blade that has a 2.5" cutting edge vs. another that has a 3.5"-4" cutting edge.
 
Yotee said:
Jim,

Thanks for the quick reply, I kinda figured as much after seeing your data.

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to change the shape of the blade of the Mule? Maybe to something like this -

So that I can put a handle on it like this - to give me a little more reach and a gut hook to boot. The tang would only be 2/3 of the handle but I can't believe that would be a problem.

Your thoughts again would be most valuable to me before I start on such a project.

Yotee
Click to expand...

Based on my experience enlarging the holes on the MT01, hand and power tools are going to be a challenge. You're going to smoke a lot of tools. Maybe if you have access to a laser cutter or something similar...
 
Jim,
Thanks for finding such a polite way of saying that modifications to the mule would be best left to professionals. I don't really know what I was thinking when I thought I could grab a file and start shaping. I'm new to all this steel stuff.

I bought the mule somewhat by accident stumbling onto the web site at the right time and seeing it as the cheapest fixed blade available. Funny, huh? I see that now they are fetching a good buck on e-bay so I'll probably sell it and go get a nice s90v hunter made by Phil (and get out of the knife making business for good).

Thanks again for your help.
 
Yotee said:
Jim,
Thanks for finding such a polite way of saying that modifications to the mule would be best left to professionals. I don't really know what I was thinking when I thought I could grab a file and start shaping. I'm new to all this steel stuff.

I bought the mule somewhat by accident stumbling onto the web site at the right time and seeing it as the cheapest fixed blade available. Funny, huh? I see that now they are fetching a good buck on e-bay so I'll probably sell it and go get a nice s90v hunter made by Phil (and get out of the knife making business for good).

Thanks again for your help.
Click to expand...

Also, I would check out the maintenance and tinkering section to get more specific answers. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/794-Maintenance-Tinkering-amp-Embellishment
 
Yotee said:
Jim,
Thanks for finding such a polite way of saying that modifications to the mule would be best left to professionals. I don't really know what I was thinking when I thought I could grab a file and start shaping. I'm new to all this steel stuff.

I bought the mule somewhat by accident stumbling onto the web site at the right time and seeing it as the cheapest fixed blade available. Funny, huh? I see that now they are fetching a good buck on e-bay so I'll probably sell it and go get a nice s90v hunter made by Phil (and get out of the knife making business for good).

Thanks again for your help.
Click to expand...

You could anneal the K390 mule, pick up some carbide and diamond tools, rework it, and send it to a reputable HT'er to get it hardened. Shoot, maybe they could even run it to 65hrc to get max performance.
 
TriviaM,

I can hear the terrified screams of the mule now.

After Jim's comment I did a little research and believe any further action on my part would be silly and outside my knowledge base, at least for a while.

It all happened so fast and I got caught up in the steel mania for a few days but I think I'm back now and will go forward using the few knives I have as usual and appreciating the master pieces that are out there but that I generally have little use for.

Thanks for the encouragement none the less
 
Is it worth getting a couple of simple carbon steel blades like in 1090 or 1075 tested, Jim. Can't imagine they would be cutting to long but it would serve as a comparison for me as there's quite a few knives out there made from carbon steels. Any thoughts?
 
Yotee said:
Is it worth getting a couple of simple carbon steel blades like in 1090 or 1075 tested, Jim. Can't imagine they would be cutting to long but it would serve as a comparison for me as there's quite a few knives out there made from carbon steels. Any thoughts?
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Don't quote me on this but I believe Jim has said that the range of usable HRC's for 1095 and the other simple carbon steels was just too large to have testing be relevant. As far as I know, 1095 is usable from around 55 - 65 depending on how you want to use it, so there would just be a whole range of where it would show up on his list depending on the HT.

Oh, I just found his post about it here.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...t-rope?p=11912944&highlight=1095#post11912944

and

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...t-rope?p=11404844&highlight=1095#post11404844
 
Thanks Invective, the thread is so long I must have been nodding out a little on those posts. Get points made.
 
Well, I got my Mule in K390 the other day. That steel is hard! I was working a bit more aggressive than I should've been removing the grinding marks with 100 grit stones on my Wicked Edge and got bit by her pretty good. Knew right there I need to respect this knife.

Looking forward to some hard use and seeing how it compares to my CPM M4 which is my EDC that I use pretty rough.

20130731_214434.jpg
 
For the polished edge tests, B75P came in as Category 6 with 154CM (61). ATS-34 (59) came in as Category 5. CPM154 (62) came in a Category 4.
The chemistry of these alloys are very similar, their performance is not.
The overall coarse edge results seem to correlate more closely to the vanadium content, the polished edge results not as closely, and there seems to be something else going on as well.
Since K390 exceeded the S90V performance in the coarse edge test and they have very similar vanadium contents, is that something else the elusive edge stability?
If so could edge stability be a function of heat treating process and not simply the final hardness?
Thanks! As this data set grows it becomes increasingly interesting!
 
The chemistry of these alloys are very similar, their performance is not.
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I agree. Looking strictly at chemistry, the B75 with it's added vanadium carbides should do better than the 14/4 steels ( 154cm, CPM 154, ATS 34) in theory. The truth though shows we can't just go by chemistry, or even hardness.

Joe
 
Joe, yes I was surprised with the comparison of CTS XHP and CPM S30V, and how a lower carbide steel like XHP beat S30V in the finer grit edge and how the results reversed with a course edge. The high carbide steels seem to perform better with toothier edges, but to what extent? I am wondering how H1 will do with a coarse edge compared to a fine on jim's test. In my experience a 400 grit edge cuts much longer then a stropped .5 micron edge on this grade, though I still am not a fan of this steel:)
 
5001craig said:
Well, I got my Mule in K390 the other day. Looking forward to some hard use and seeing how it compares to my CPM M4 which is my EDC that I use pretty rough.
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I am also looking at M4 for a general purpose pocket carry knife for my daughter who is in ROTC... the Bradley folder. This vs. the s30v of the Military or Paramilitary by Spyderco, since s90v is too expensive right now in the same folders.

Anyway, to your question: I am going to suppose the M4 will have approx. the same edge retention as the M390. Given this, the K390 per Ankerson's 400 grit edge manila rope cutting test (page 1 of this thread) retains its edge more than twice the M4 (as it does the M390). And I think it is about equally as pliant (tough). That tells me that the k390 has everything the M4 does, plus twice as much edge retention. Too bad k390 isn't available in a folder at this time.

So for my purpose in gifting a folding knife my daughter can use in ROTC training, then in the field eventually, I have to think about the toughness of M4 against the superior edge retention of S90v (since k390 is not available). Who knows when she will need to use the knife for some non-slicing task where toughness might matter. I actually don't see any advantage to s30v vs. M4 other than use in a very humid climate. So for me it's down to M4 vs. S90v for current production, or s110v if it comes out in the Military or Paramilitary2. I am leaning toward M4 b/c of toughness.

In a perfect world in a few years:

One of each:

-K390 for non-humid area use, or where prying/battoning, gouging might be necessary every once in awhile
-S110v for humid area use and where prying/battoning and gouging won't be necessary
 
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Fancier said:
Since K390 exceeded the S90V performance in the coarse edge test and they have very similar vanadium contents, is that something else the elusive edge stability?
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I see a few possible explanations for why K390 trounced S90v in the course edge manila rope cutting test:

- 1% tungsten vs. 0%
- triple the amount of Moly
- 2% cobalt vs. 0%
- RC 63 vs. RC 60

What I'm really, really interested in seeing (hint hint) is Ankerson's test with the s110v Native 5 he reprofiled last week. It would be interesting to see if the 1% Tungsten in the K390 plays a more important role in edge retention than the much higher Chromium and the Niobium 3% in the s110v. I am assuming/guessing that Spyderco ran at 62 or 63 RC on that Native 5 blade.

Does anyone have a guess as to which will come out on top in the edge vs. Manila rope contest ... K390 or s110v? My bet is that they come out approximately the same.
 
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Ankerson said:
I will be doing a review on it, but the blades (Cutting edge) too short to test consistently in the rope cutting... I tried to test the N5 in S35VN before.
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Dunnin, it looks like you'll have to wait for another (longer) production S110V knife to get your comparison to K390.

You may well be right that the K390 knife performs better than the S90V knives because it has a higher hardness.
 
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