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Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope
- Thread starter Ankerson
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^^^^ lmao
chiral.grolim
Universal Kydex Sheath Extension
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Back to the top as we wait.
(Has anyone suggested that Ankerson try 'laying on of hands'? Er... on a second thought, scratch that... er, nevermind)
(Has anyone suggested that Ankerson try 'laying on of hands'? Er... on a second thought, scratch that... er, nevermind)
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Yes
Why give up anything? Have both toughness and easy to sharpen.
Yes. If you disagree, come up with you own test.
You get what you pay for.
Chuck
i do not wanna do the edge retention test by myself , the reason is very simple , there is no need to do it.
as i mentioned above that some plain cheaper ones can meet my needs , and i get huge satisfied with those things.
BUCK for folders and hunters
cold steel 1055 for big choppers
scrap yard for big knives.
i can get what i want & i can choose right tools , so i make few Q above , inquiring what is the necessity for those labor consuming test and gets nothing.
thousand years , mankind have been use carbon steels , those simple steels works and works well , many generations lacking of seeing OP's retention test , they lives and they lives well , so what is the necessity to do edge retention test like op ?
i can not get the right expression on it in english , 吃饱了撑的！
by nelecting some metrics ,like lateral strengh and toughness of the steels , just do cuttings like OP and get conclustions , no significance!
high alloy and high HRC is cool , this is what i get from the op's test .
i do not wanna fuss any one here , just say some things what i thought.
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Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. I'm wondering how many of these steels you have tried yourself Dingy? I like plain carbon steels, and tool steels, and high speed steels, Crucibles'Killer V's, etc., etc.
I could get by with 1095 for my cutting and slicing chores. I'm sure glad I don't have to.
BTW, Still have a knife or two for you to test when you get better Jim.
Joe
I could get by with 1095 for my cutting and slicing chores. I'm sure glad I don't have to.
BTW, Still have a knife or two for you to test when you get better Jim.
Joe
dingy I understand where you are coming from but in all actuality it is not practical to test lateral strength of a 4 inch blade especially the knives that jim tests. The only way to test these knives for lateral strength is to break each one and even then you are not testing the steel you are testing the thickness of the spin or the width of the blade.
I have thought about this test a lot but it would have to be a test that other knife makers would get involved in. I want to make a standard rectangle piece of steel not very thick like 1/8 thick heat treat it as I would a knife and use a torque wrench to see what it takes to break. My test would consist of grouping the diff steels by hrc, also each piece would have to be exactly the same to a 600 grit finish. To take away from any surface stressers.
Where other knife makers come in is if they would agree I would send them a piece of the steel that they use, or if they have a scrap piece big enough to full fill the standard size, and have them heat treat it exactly as they would a knife and have them send it back so it could be tested. This test would still cost a lot of money but not nearly as much as breaking a 600 dollar knife.
I would test for degrees of bend and torque strength. I would also not go past 90 degrees and if a knife goes to this point then it will be bent the other way and I will log how many 90 degree bends it took to break it. I have also been thinking about testing what steels will take a set bend in it or always come back to true, by bending each piece in increments of 5 degrees.
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Very significant if edge retention is important to me.
And if I do not think edge retention is important, my idea of materiality of data is not a universal truth.
chiral.grolim
Universal Kydex Sheath Extension
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Dingy, I wish we all knew how to type Chinese.
Your assessment of the test is correct about "high alloy and high HRC" - the high HRC gives edge strength against compression or rolling, the high alloy gives abrasion-resistant carbides.
In the thousands of years of blade edge technology, man has tested many materials - wood, stone, various metals heated & cooled various ways. Wood is very light and could be made very sharp, but it was not very strong when also very thin, nor does it resist abrasion - there are some materials that a wooden blade simply cannot cut. Stone blades might resist abrasion very well, but again could not be made very thin without becoming very fragile (not tough), and were heavy. Bronze and iron could be made thinner and lighter and tougher than stone and more abrasion resistant than wood but still not very strong unless heated to the point of brittleness. But by adding carbon and alloying elements, and heating/cooling in particular ways, we can achieve edges that are very thin and so cut very well, also very tough and strong compared to stone or wood so thin, and also very abrasion resistant! And there are other aspects, like corrosion resistance, that have been discovered / developed.
In truth, many of us have no need for such incredible technology. Many could get by with wood or glass or plastic blades. Many could get by with basic steel. But for others, the new technology is of great advantage, just as steel was an advantage over bronze or wood for weapons and tools millennia ago! But the advance in technology comes at a price, just as steel was more expensive than wood. YOU must decide if the advantage is worth the price. Do you cut a lot of abrasive material? If not, this test is not important to you, high wear-resistance is not an advantage.
If what is important to you is lateral strength and toughness, it is already known that steel "strength" increases linearly with hardness (so long as the steel is free of occlusions and micro-fractures), and toughness increases as carbide (including iron-carbide) size and segregation decrease. Heat treatment can dramatically alter the steel matrix of low-alloy steels: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...de-testing-results-summary-and-lessons-learnt
Testing the same steel from different makers, even at the same hardness depending on how it was achieved, may have dramatically different results in impact toughness in terms of the damage sustained.
But I think Crucible provides a better summation as to what this test is about:
http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/general/generalpart1.html
So how tough do you need your knife to be? How strong? And will you sacrifice cutting ability (geometry) or wear-resistance (alloy content) to achieve that?
To those interested in the impact tests, what sort of stress-tests do you envision to emulate reality and so demonstrate the steel's ability to endure? What will be the baseline?
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The way I see it (in response to dingy) is that some might find the need of high wear resistant steel in their daily work, and these people will benefit from Jim's test.
I get by with 8Cr13MoV being an urban office worker. However, it'll be interesting to try other alloys, as I like sharp things!
Jim might be enjoying the test process and the learning. It's called passion (not sure the Chinese term). Without such passion, the effort and cost he spends will not be worth it for him.
Some of us share the same passion, but might not have the resource (time, energy, environment, and not least, the fund) to do so, so we enjoy his test report. It's also the reason some of us frequnet this subforum, and perhaps the MT&E subforum.
Jim, thanks for all the effort!
if my guess is wrong, please correct me.
I get by with 8Cr13MoV being an urban office worker. However, it'll be interesting to try other alloys, as I like sharp things!
Jim might be enjoying the test process and the learning. It's called passion (not sure the Chinese term). Without such passion, the effort and cost he spends will not be worth it for him.
Some of us share the same passion, but might not have the resource (time, energy, environment, and not least, the fund) to do so, so we enjoy his test report. It's also the reason some of us frequnet this subforum, and perhaps the MT&E subforum.
Jim, thanks for all the effort!
if my guess is wrong, please correct me.
thank you for those inputs , men.
The Mastiff, right , some people do not have chance to hold so many knives , they can take this test as a reference.
chiral.grolim, i found that lower alloy steels , gennerally can sharpened to a tinner edge than high alloy steels , i mean it is hard to sharpen the high alloy steels and when it get the thin edge ,and the edge does not stable , via hard cuttings i did.
In my exprience, i have to leave a thicker angle on high alloy steel edge , as a result that high angle edge sucks the performance , so normally i do not buy those super steel knives.
As an example of carbon mora knife that can get a thinner edge make it cutting more effective and has enough strengh sustain the thin edge to keep in good formation , why? cause lateral strengh and toughness both are not only related to stock resistance but to edge.
As you all paid attention fact --retention, mora carbon is not a sinny one , but it works and served me well , cool. :thumbup:
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I have to disagree with your statement above about the high alloy steels not being able to handle thin low angle edges. I have worked with both 10V and O1, and performed the same tasks with both knives. Not only does the 10V knife perform all the same tasks as the O1 knife it is still extremely sharp. In carving I find that after as little as 10 minutes I can tell a considerable amount of the cutting edge of an O1 knife has gone away, but the high alloy knife is still very efficiently removing wood. The only thing you are "giving up" in the high alloy steels is ease of sharpening, but that is not really an issue for me as I use diamond stones and they do not care about alloy content. I am in no way saying that O1 is a bad steel as I cut my knife making teeth with O1 and still use it today, but given the chance I would not choose O1 over any of the higher alloy steels. This thread is not for everyone, but the benefit of it is that it compares steels of different hardness and compositions on as level a playing a field as possible.
That is what we are looking for, you want to take knife design out of the picture as much as possible I want to be able to compare the STEEL toughness in the same categories as jim has done. So that you can pick a category that you are comfortably with in edge holding from jims list and out of those steels you can then chose your choice of toughness that fits you.
the only thing that is holding me back, is I do not have the machinery to make perfect sized pieces of steel to that grade of finish. So when that is worked out the testing can begin.
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Isn't the testing that chad2 and PB Wilson are wanting done the same basic thing as a Charpy Notch tests? The Charpy test is measured in Joules though and not foot pounds.
The conversion can be made using this formula joules x .737562 = ft-lbs.
I do not remember where I have seen it, but I know that somewhere on here there has been a link to a testing site that had a lot of our knife steels listed.
The conversion can be made using this formula joules x .737562 = ft-lbs.
I do not remember where I have seen it, but I know that somewhere on here there has been a link to a testing site that had a lot of our knife steels listed.