Rare !!!Plumb axe help dating and other information

[Steve Tall]

Permabond was an option for axe/hatchet handles since its introduction in the early 50s and then wider use after 1955. Did this mean that every tool that came from Plumb used the permabond process? No. ...

Here's some supporting evidence (though not absolute proof):

In Square_peg's price list from the late 1960s, there were 23 descriptions of different axes and hatchets from Plumb.
Only 9 mentioned Permabond (for example, "Fitted with Permabond red hickory handle").
The others said something like, "Fitted with power-driven red hickory handle."

I recently received a Seattle Hardware catalog from sometime in the late 60's. I haven't figured out exactly what year yet. Still, it's fun to look at their offerings and prices. Here's a sample.

There are 9 pages of axes and hatchets. I've scanned them into a single pdf file.

http://cedarriverforge.com/Photo-index/Tools/Seattle Hardware catalog pages/Axes Prices.pdf

 

[Steve Tall]

Some more evidence of both Permabond and wedged axes being sold by Plumb in the 1960s:

"The handles of both Tasmanian and Dreadnaught axes are secured by the 'Permabond' method; in the All American axe the cheaper wooden wedge is used."

from The Records of the Proceedings and the Printed Papers, Volume 3, Australia Parliament, 1961
https://books.google.com/books?id=vLIcAQAAMAAJ&dq=plumb+%22all+american%22+axe+permabond&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=permabond+method
https://books.google.com/books?id=vLIcAQAAMAAJ&dq=plumb+%22all+american%22+axe+permabond&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=wedge+method

 

[rjdankert]

. . .I'm not a young guy either and my memory is not infallible . . .

I believe that as humans, none of us have perfect recall. I know for sure that I don't.

Bob

 

[rjdankert]

Here's some supporting evidence (though not absolute proof):

In Square_peg's price list from the late 1960s, there were 23 descriptions of different axes and hatchets from Plumb.
Only 9 mentioned Permabond. . .

Some more evidence of both Permabond and wedged axes being sold by Plumb in the 1960s:. . .

Maybe some more evidence from yesteryearstools.com: ". . . the use of Permabond was included more and more in Plumb striking tools."

If this is true, it suggests to me that Permabond was phased in - not switched to all tools at the same time. I still have not found that Permabond was an option to the customer.

Bob

 

[Steve Tall]

...it suggests to me that Permabond was phased in - not switched to all tools at the same time. I still have not found that Permabond was an option to the customer.

There's an article in The Chronicle (The Chronicle of The Early American Industries Association, Vol. 37, No. 4, December 1984, pages 70-71, "Yerkes & Plumb" by Dan Comerford) about the history of Plumb, as told (or written) to the author by Fayette R. Plumb II (the grandson of the original F.R. Plumb). FRPII said that the Permabond process was first put into production in 1954, on Plumb's "Leader" brand of hammers, but the resin was black, not red. In 1955, Plumb changed the black to red [and this is the year that Plumb started advertising Permabond, as far as I know]. FRPII said that Permabond was used on "all tools of top grade." This implies to me that some products were still wedged.

The previously linked Australian source mentioned that Permabond was more costly to Plumb than the normal wedging, which seems consistent with what FRPII said.

As far as Permabond being an "option", I think was effectively an option to the distributor or retailer when they were deciding which of Plumbs brands to carry (the ones with Permabond and/or the ones without).

Looking at more recent production, there's a Plumb catalog available online, from 2007, and some of the axes/hatchets have wedges and some of them have Permabond.

 

[quinton]

Through the late 60's on, I never saw a Plumb handled tool without permabond. I did take notice of the drastic change in quality sometime in the 80's.

 

[Operator1975]

If you think that Plumb ONLY offered tools with permabond post 1956, well that's just absurd.

The Plumb I showed was pre 1980 as my father remembers buying it before we moved houses in 1980, and it was put up in the garage from moving one house to another, and not used since then. Ive had it for a couple years, and it screams old school Plumb.

Remember, what Tom Lammond, Alan Klenman, Larry Mcphail, etc wrote is not always gospel and 100% correct. Different research abilities and forms of communication then vs now. They made mistakes. And its ok. Its a GUIDE.

You wonder why quality members have left this forum.

 

[300Six]

Anyway....getting back to the original thread starter hatchet I'm supposing that any reliable dating of it has suddenly become much more difficult. Could have been made in the 1980s for all we know.

 

[quinton]

If you think that Plumb ONLY offered tools with permabond post 1956, well that's just absurd.

The Plumb I showed was pre 1980 as my father remembers buying it before we moved houses in 1980, and it was put up in the garage from moving one house to another, and not used since then. Ive had it for a couple years, and it screams old school Plumb.

Remember, what Tom Lammond, Alan Klenman, Larry Mcphail, etc wrote is not always gospel and 100% correct. Different research abilities and forms of communication then vs now. They made mistakes. And its ok. Its a GUIDE.

You wonder why quality members have left this forum.

It does scream old school Plumb, high center line, form, finish and all. That's why it seems weird to me it was bought in 78'. Why do you seem defensive, Operator?

 

[Agent_H]

I investigated the axe closely there is a stamp under the decal (sticker)

Was that common to see them stamped PLUMB into the head as well a decal, sticker, or detail color directly applied to the stamp?

 

[BG_Farmer]

I'm probably not "quality" enough to make this observation, but the handle in particular has been reworked it appears to me. The stain is blotched and there are sanding scratches on it, almost as if it has been sanded down and refinished; the stamping on the handle is not NOS either, in my opinion. I'm also skeptical about the head, with the paint being so pristine, the poll polished, and the sticker looking ragged. I don't think the sharpening is factory either, but by the time I was old enough to notice, axes generally came ready for the user to sharpen but dull as a froe, so what do I know...

 

[Steve Tall]

I'm probably not "quality" enough to make this observation, but the handle in particular has been reworked it appears to me. The stain is blotched and there are sanding scratches on it, almost as if it has been sanded down and refinished; the stamping on the handle is not NOS either, in my opinion. I'm also skeptical about the head, with the paint being so pristine, the poll polished, and the sticker looking ragged. I don't think the sharpening is factory either, but by the time I was old enough to notice, axes generally came ready for the user to sharpen but dull as a froe, so what do I know...

I was also wondering about the mottled handle with a pristine head, in contrast with the other examples posted in this thread. I'm learning here like everyone else, but a decal on the stamp does seem unusual. I had initially assumed that the Plumb marking had been painted on, which also seems unusual?

 

[BG_Farmer]

I was also wondering about the mottled handle with a pristine head, in contrast with the other examples posted in this thread. I'm learning here like everyone else, but a decal on the stamp does seem unusual. I had initially assumed that the Plumb marking had been painted on, which also seems unusual?

A painted stamp wouldn't surprise me on pre war work, but I don't have any knowledge whether they did that or not. A decal over a stamp strikes me as very strange, also.

 

[quinton]

I was also wondering about the mottled handle with a pristine head, in contrast with the other examples posted in this thread. I'm learning here like everyone else, but a decal on the stamp does seem unusual. I had initially assumed that the Plumb marking had been painted on, which also seems unusual?

A painted stamp wouldn't surprise me on pre war work, but I don't have any knowledge whether they did that or not. A decal over a stamp strikes me as very strange, also.

The stamps did have color at some point in time, maybe always..This is not a close up picture, but it shows a painted stamp.

 

[halfaxe]

I still think the original posted hatchet is pre 1955. Based not only on no permabond but the gold embossed lettering on the handle instead of a sticker like the above db axe. Also the round knob end instead of a fawn foot. Just a guess here, no proof and learning like everyone else. That mottling indicates a poorly mixed or applied stain/paint but looks original to me. I think it is original since the stamped gold lettering on top would be hard to counterfeit. Plumb also used two tone colors like red and green on pre-war boy scout hatchets and half black paint on house axe handles. The early paint was always a thin lacquer or oil-based type that easily got worn to where the wood showed through.

 

[quinton]

I still think the original posted hatchet is pre 1955. Based not only on no permabond but the gold embossed lettering on the handle instead of a sticker like the above db axe. Also the round knob end instead of a fawn foot. Just a guess here, no proof and learning like everyone else. That mottling indicates a poorly mixed or applied stain/paint but looks original to me. I think it is original since the stamped gold lettering on top would be hard to counterfeit. Plumb also used two tone colors like red and green on pre-war boy scout hatchets and half black paint on house axe handles. The early paint was always a thin lacquer or oil-based type that easily got worn to where the wood showed through.

I think it's pre 1955 as well.

 

[gben]

I would not call permabond an option, as that does imply that the consumer could order it on any caliber of Plumb axe or hatchet. It cost more to permabond, so it was probably used on the better Plumb products, and the cheaper Plumb products made do without it.

Just as Kelly had more details in the finish of their more expensive axes post WWII, the sculpturing and polishing on the Perfect, the stamped name on the Flint-edge, and then the Woodslasher that made due with only paper labels.

Plumb, Kelly and all major axe manufacturers that were in competition with each other had similar model lines with similar features.

If the Plumb axe at the thread start is a 50s-on item, then the lack of a stamped head and permabond in the eye simply mean it is a low-end Plumb product.

As we do on every axe brand, more research and documentation is needed in place of "because I said so"s.

 

[rjdankert]

Anyway....getting back to the original thread starter hatchet I'm supposing that any reliable dating of it has suddenly become much more difficult. . .

I agree. If the hatchet had Permabond it would probably be a safe bet to say it is no older than 1954-55.

. . . Could have been made in the 1980s for all we know.

Could be, how do we know the handle is original to the head?

Bob

 

[300Six]

Here's some supporting evidence (though not absolute proof):

In Square_peg's price list from the late 1960s, there were 23 descriptions of different axes and hatchets from Plumb.
Only 9 mentioned Permabond (for example, "Fitted with Permabond red hickory handle").
The others said something like, "Fitted with power-driven red hickory handle."

Aside from Permabond not being touted on the majority of Plumbs listed in this particular catalogue if you spy page 10 item A: Plumb Expert shingler's hatchet, the description reads "red hickory handle and take-up wedge". Whooo. If this is the same threaded conical (and Plumb patented?) "take-up" wedge of the mid to late 1920s, 30s and into the 40s then precise dating of Plumbs has instantly become even more confounding.

 

[Operator1975]

I guess I need to describe the word OPTION, as people tend to think that they could walk into a hardware store and I guess go Burger King and have it their way, right then and there. Not quite the case, but not terribly far off either.

Permabond was an "option" offered by Plumb, post 1955 on various striking tool products. Just like eyes with ridges were an option, just like the Plumb wedge with screw was an option, just like the overall quality of the axe head itself was an option. People had "options" to chose from, just like with any other product. This option could in fact be ordered or not ordered. Just look at the old catalogs and you could get whatever you wanted however you wanted it.

Does this mean that if you have a Plumb product of whatever nature that is not utilizing Permabond that it is a pre 1955 product? No.

And that is the short of it. Plumb made millions of products in various forms, arrangements, combinations, etc pre and post 1955. That's business.

The issue I have with this thread is people just plainly trying to stir the pot. This is why you lose good people that can contribute to topics, based on facts, not on how hard life was back in the day when you had to walk up hill to school both ways in bare feet in 5 feet of snow and be able to only get a job where you used a hammer for the next 40 years, or only what you have ever seen or not seen. We have never seen many things in this life, doesn't mean it isn't true. That doesn't make you an expert in anything other than being salty, period.

Done with this.