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Rare !!!Plumb axe help dating and other information

Discussion in 'Axe, Tomahawk, & Hatchet Forum' started by Yarin, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. quinton

    quinton

    Nov 4, 2006
    Yes, but that Plumb ad would be from a catalog that, Old Axeman supplied, and would have an earlier date, I would guess.
     
  2. rjdankert

    rjdankert Gold Member Gold Member Basic Member

    Mar 10, 2011
    I would guess so too. I just cited the source so you will have to sort that out with Old Axeman. :)

    Description for that entry is "Figure 21b--More 20th-century plumb hatchets and axes."

    Bob
     
  3. quinton

    quinton

    Nov 4, 2006
    Thanks, Bob..
     
  4. 300Six

    300Six

    Aug 29, 2013
    Good to be reaquainted with this wonderful information source. Operator1975 has also initiated a specific thread on this forum (with lots of photos) devoted to Plumb hatchets and axes. I'm beginning to see why no one really wants to wade into the debate about epoxy hangs or 'take up' wedges as firm indicators of manufacture dates.
     
  5. Square_peg

    Square_peg Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 1, 2012
    Note the sanding scratches in the handle.
     
  6. BG_Farmer

    BG_Farmer

    556
    Mar 13, 2014
    Noted, but that one looks fairly pristine to me, stain and sticker wise. One other thought is given the direction, could those be turning marks not sanded out? I am not talking about the ones under the head, which are likely left after fitting, but along the shaft.
     
  7. Old Axeman

    Old Axeman Gold Member Gold Member

    784
    Jan 10, 2015
    I am looking for the catalog to find a date for you. Catalog was not on the shelf. This means it is in one of many moving boxes, could take a while to find.
     
  8. quinton

    quinton

    Nov 4, 2006
    Thank you, Old Axeman!
     
  9. quinton

    quinton

    Nov 4, 2006
  10. Operator1975

    Operator1975 Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Sep 24, 2010
    So, this is what I have for this topic -

    From a 1954 Plumb catalog I just got, it shows the Plumb All American label I show above in the one pic - thus showing this label was in use as early as 1954, if not earlier -

    [​IMG]

    This then shows the axe I gave the picture of can very well indeed be pre 1980, as I have claimed it to be, based off of what my dad told me.

    Also, in this catalog is has a excerpt from a Plumb meeting in 1974, which is a great read. This is from the Early American Industries Association -

    [​IMG]

    In the Plumb meeting notes, it does state that Permabond was only used on the high end line of Plumb axes until 1974, then all axes went to Permabond technology, including the All American line, which is listed in the catalogs as not showing Permabond technology listed - from this same catalog 1954( you can see where it states Permabond or not)

    [​IMG]

    The excerpt from the meeting -

    [​IMG]

    This then justifies my claim that not ALL Plumb axes were utilizing Permabond technology post 1955. To claim they did just doesn't make sense based off of what I have seen out there, in my collections, others, on ebay, etc. Overall Permabond numbers in axes are very low compared to the total out there.

    One question left though is just how old is that All American Axe that I got from my dad - I will have to dig deeper into that.

    So there you have it. Hopefully we can put this to bed now.

    BAM
     
    Agent_H likes this.
  11. quinton

    quinton

    Nov 4, 2006
    Thanks, Operator. I think, 300 said it best; "a lot of cooks stirring in that pot".
     
  12. Operator1975

    Operator1975 Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Sep 24, 2010
    So said the Chef
     
  13. 300Six

    300Six

    Aug 29, 2013
    Thanks Operator chief cook and bottle washer. Now we see (from a 1954 catalogue) that the Permabond introduction date has been moved back by at least another year. And there is no gloating about introduction of a 'revolutionary new chemical weld process' in there either.
    On a side note from spying through the illustrated list; "Cedar" pattern axe has a Michigan-style rounded poll and a fan-shaped blade whereas "National" pattern has a tall and squared poll. and is straight from eye to toe. Otherwise they superficially look similar.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
  14. Operator1975

    Operator1975 Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Sep 24, 2010
    So this is royal mess now.

    The 1954 catalog is part of this entire reprint that I just got. The 1954 catalog comprises of 40 pages, is in the back of this booklet, and makes no mention of Permabond being an option.

    The front of the booklet has the advertisements for Permabond with axes and sledges, shows the axe with the All American label, etc. However the sledge advertisement is the same on that is pictured in the 1965 catalog posted online. So......the advertisements have to be post 1954 seeing the actual catalog makes no mention of Permabond, and this would match up with the 1955 timeline as well.

    So, this mess being said, the All American label would still be way pre 1980, just not sure how early.

    Time to dig back in. UGH.
     
  15. 300Six

    300Six

    Aug 29, 2013
    What started this thread was an innocuous question about determining the age of 'a' NOS hatchet. "No take-up wedge and no Permabond therefore mid-40s to mid-50s" got shot all to pieces over the past week and now we've managed to mess you up!
    Are there any retired/former Plumb employees out there that might be able to shed some light on any of this?
     
  16. Agent_H

    Agent_H Gold Member Gold Member

    Aug 21, 2013
    These are lifted from Steve and Maree Lehmann's website. Looks like the same background as the one Quinton posted.

    http://stevelehmannaxes.com/

    Thought I recognized it.

    Also, if it's not appropriate to post their pictures here, I will most definitely remove them and just leave the main site for a link to their eye candy.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So here is some memory lane material:
    I don’t know if any of this helps. I only own a couple Plumbs that I’ve kept that didn’t end up a gift to someone – a Plumb Victory without a sticker and came to me without a handle, a 3.5# National Pattern, and a Jersey.

    Realize this isn’t from meeting notes and the official like but it is interesting from a customer perspective as to what was being put forth as advertisement of their tools to a wider audience. I tried to include links to the pictures when I could.


    1919 Popular Science ad
    [​IMG]
    Undated Ad
    [​IMG]



    Plumb take-up wedge Mentioned 1922
    1922 Boy’s Life Ad
    https://books.google.com/books?id=0...#v=onepage&q=plumb axes take-up wedge&f=false
    [​IMG]



    1925 Popular Science Ad
    [​IMG]



    1925 Popular Science Ad
    [​IMG]



    1926 Popular Science Ad
    [​IMG]



    1928 Popular Science Ad
    [​IMG]



    1929 Popular Science Ad
    [​IMG]



    1929 (Screenshots taken from auction listing sold as 1929), p.4
    [​IMG]



    1929 (Screenshots taken from auction listing sold as 1929) p.5
    [​IMG]



    1929 (Screenshots taken from auction listing sold as 1929) p.6
    [​IMG]



    1930 Popular Science Ad
    [​IMG]


    1931 Popular Science Ad
    [​IMG]


    1942, May Boy’s Life Ad
    May 1942 https://books.google.com/books?id=2...#v=onepage&q=plumb axes take-up wedge&f=false
    [​IMG]


    1942 Sept https://books.google.com/books?id=x...#v=onepage&q=plumb axes take-up wedge&f=false
    [​IMG]


    1942 Oct https://books.google.com/books?id=N...#v=onepage&q=plumb axes take-up wedge&f=false
    [​IMG]



    1943 (Screenshots taken from auction) “Victory”
    [​IMG]



    1943 May https://books.google.com/books?id=M...#v=onepage&q=plumb axes take-up wedge&f=false
    [​IMG]

    1944 Popular Science Ad “Victory”
    [​IMG]



    1953 Popular Science Ad https://books.google.com/books?id=L...UU2mMKHfJnDTo4ChDoAQg6MAM#v=onepage&q&f=false
    [​IMG]


    1984 reference to original black Permabond, Victory, Chronicle of Early American Industries – snippet
    [​IMG]


    1955 Popular Mechanics Ad (First Permabond reference I could find) – see the 1983 mention from Cooper Tools below.
    (Thanks for the catch Steve Tall)

    https://books.google.com/books?id=2...LAhUY7mMKHaC8DTIQ6AEIMDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
    [​IMG]



    1956 – from auction site listing it as 1965 but I can’t verify it.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.ecrater.com/p/6042216/1956-color-print-tool-ad-plumb


    1957 Popular Science Ad
    https://books.google.com/books?id=i...Djk4ChDoAQg1MAM#v=onepage&q=plumb axe&f=false
    [​IMG]


    1978 Popular Science Ad
    https://books.google.com/books?id=A...Djk4ChDoAQgpMAA#v=onepage&q=plumb axe&f=false
    [​IMG]


    1983 Mention in Cooper Tools
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
  17. Steve Tall

    Steve Tall

    Aug 28, 2010
    The date for that advertisement is actually September 1955.
     
  18. Agent_H

    Agent_H Gold Member Gold Member

    Aug 21, 2013
    Thanks Steve. Changed it per your catch.

    Please note anything else you might find. I tried to name each shot while looking at the materials to keep it straight.

    It was an escape from the in-laws this Sunday.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
  19. Steve Tall

    Steve Tall

    Aug 28, 2010
    I have that article on DVD (and I mentioned it earlier in this thread) from The Chronicle (The Chronicle of The Early American Industries Association, Vol. 37, No. 4, December 1984, pages 70-71, "Yerkes & Plumb" by Dan Comerford) about the history of Plumb, as told (or written) to the author by Fayette R. Plumb II (the grandson of the original F.R. Plumb).

    Here's what FRPII said about Permabond:

    "1954 -- Plumb Permabond appears as black material in Leader Tools -- marketed until 1955 -- L81 only."

    "1955 -- Permabond in all tools of top grade. Fiberglass handle F55 and F55R appear -- solid fiberglass handle."

    Some other dates from his timeline that might help with figuring out when a Plumb tool was made:

    "1910-1911 -- Plant built in St. Louis, Mo., to manufacture axes."

    "1920 -- Plumb changes to trademark colors of black head & red handle"

    "1940 -- All tools stamped Genuine Plumb"

    "1942 -- 'Victory' finish introduced & for duration of WWII"

    "1960 -- St. Louis plant is closed and sold. All manufacturing shifted to Philadelphia."
    [YesteryearsTools shows some of the labels associated with the St. Louis plant.]

    Mr. Plumb also disclosed that Plumb made the following brands, among others:
    Blue Grass
    O-V-B (Our Very Best)
    Diamond Edge
     

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