Ray Mears: "I have seen too many folders give way"

[Nottingham Forest]

I remember watching a clip of Ray Mears when he emphasized using a fixed blade over a folder because he has seen them fail on too many occasions while instructing. I have been scouring the internet to find the source of this link but without success. I have a couple of his series on DVD so its possible I may have seen it on there.

I remember that he used the term, 'fold back'. What was he talking about in this sense? Normally when I think of a folder failing I think of the lock-back mechanism or liner lock failing and the knife closing. Is that what 'fold back' means?

I doubt he meant the knife literally folding back on the top of your hand. How many people have seen someone exert enough downward force to rip a pin through the liners/frame to get it to 'fold back', or rip a backspring out of a slipjoint?

I am not so concerned about the locks failing in the closed direction as I don't use my knives in this way. I am more interested in the strength of folding knives used under heavy downward force in the whittling sense. I would imagine it would require a huge amount of force to get a knife to literally fold back?

JH

 

[A.L.]

I think you are overthinking it. I'm sure he meant just simply that they break or give up (lock gives up). Or perhaps just fold back closed? But you got the point anyways didn't you?

 

[3fifty7]

The only knives I've ever seen with the issue of the lock failing and the blade folding back under semi-normal usage were Frost. Not the Frost from the 80's to mid 90's, the new late night infomercial Frost where you get a box of 150 knives for $150.

 

[Nottingham Forest]

I think you are overthinking it. I'm sure he meant just simply that they break or give up (lock gives up). Or perhaps just fold back closed? But you got the point anyways didn't you?

Yeah I got the point but in a bushcraft scenario what are these people doing to cause the lock to fail on half decent knife? I presume most people who attend his courses would bring with them a decent folding knife ...those that brought a folder.

I know batoning with a folder may cause an issue but under normal whittling circumstances why would Ray suggest that fixed blades are safer? What could possibly happen to a folder while whittling correctly?

 

[A.L.]

Yeah I got the point but in a bushcraft scenario what are these people doing to cause the lock to fail on half decent knife? I presume most people who attend his courses would bring with them a decent folding knife ...those that brought a folder.

I know batoning with a folder may cause an issue but under normal whittling circumstances why would Ray suggest that fixed blades are safer? What could possibly happen to a folder while whittling correctly?

It would be safe to assume that many people - who are interested in outdoors skills - don't really have any idea or desire to buy quality knives. So that being said, probably many bring trashy cheap knives that are sure to break. I understand what you mean though, and good quality knife does not break in sensible usage. Fixed blade is stronger however, because of it's simpleness.

 

[marcinek]

Yeah I got the point but in a bushcraft scenario what are these people doing to cause the lock to fail on half decent knife? I presume most people who attend his courses would bring with them a decent folding knife ...those that brought a folder.

I know batoning with a folder may cause an issue but under normal whittling circumstances why would Ray suggest that fixed blades are safer? What could possibly happen to a folder while whittling correctly?

A folding knife, used correctly, has little risk of "folding." You can even baton with one just fine with any locking mechanism disengaged.

But, the do fold, and can fold on you inadvertently. That potential is there...where it isn't for a fixed blade.

 

[Eagle Scout]

A stainless steel stop and pivot pin anchored in or though steel liners or titanium would require beyond human application of downward cutting force to fail under normal use IMO.

Add mechanical leverage, rotational, or impact forces, and anything is possible - but that's true of any tool.

 

[Nottingham Forest]

This is what I thought and hoped. I am into lightweight backpacking and I prefer to carry a folder vs an equivalent sized fixed blade.

If I don't intend to use the knife for prying, drilling or batoning then a good quality folder will be more than strong enough for my needs and it should not 'fail' as Rays suggests.

In respect to Ray I think he is generalizing knowing what he does about how some people may use a knife, in this sense I would agree with him. But for straight forward whittling and cutting tasks I think a good quality locking folder is more than adequate.

Eagle Scout: are there certain methods of peening the pivot pin and stop to create more strength against downward force? I ask this because I have heard that Victorinox for example use a different method than just regular peening of the pins in their SAks

 

[kniferbro]

Well not all folding knives use a stop pin. I'm thinking lock backs. Also, given from where he hails, I'm sure many of the folders were slip joints (think SAK) that also do not use a stop pin.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

For Mears type tasks a fixed blade is the most practical choice, but many of the tasks can be done if needed with a folder and the right technique. Locks will fail before solid steel. But as has been said many times it is the knife you have on you that works best(or something like that). I usually carry a folder so that is what will have to get it done.

 

[d762nato]

It seems like most of your over the top heavy duty folders are in the 10 ounce range give or take. You can get a nice sized fixed blade that will be stronger lighter easy to get out or use one handed, a sak or mulitool and a fixed and your set.

 

[Nottingham Forest]

For Mears type tasks a fixed blade is the most practical choice, but many of the tasks can be done if needed with a folder and the right technique.

Exactly

For Mears type tasks a folding locker seems adequate to me. I have seen seen a lot of him on tv and I have not once seen him baton or pry with his fixed blade yet. I think Ray is definitely a 'right tool for the job' kind of man, and he is a great advocate of the axe going into great detail in one of his books.

All this leaves him using his fixed blade for simple cutting and whittling tasks which a good quality folder can handle with ease. I think a folder with a scandi grind may be better suited to bushcraft which makes me think of his recent sypderco colaboration knife.

 

[Danke42]

Time passes. Knives improve.

Ray has a signature folding knife made by Sypderco and sold at his website.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

I've seen lots of cheap knives fold back the wrong way. Hell, as I kid I did it a time or two doing something stupid

I suppose it comes down to the tools and the give and take of what you have on you.

If I am going to bushcraft, then I am going to take a stout yet keen fixed blade like my Fiddleback Woodsman. It's a good all around knife that can cut, scrape, engineer, and process.

If I am go on an ultralight camping hike, a nice titanium frame folder with a good steel blade would get the job done. However, I am of the mindset that more tools are better than just one blade, so I would opt for a multitool to give me more options. I don't see a fixed blade or a folder as the "best" in that regard because having more stuff would with me that MAY require tweaking or repair dictates a preference of a lightweight multitool.

If you dropped into the woods with nothing but what was in my pockets, I would be thankful anything that could help craft tools to help me get out be it a 1/2" thick fixed blade or a SAK classic. I'd like to think my large monkey brain would help me figure out the possible ways to use my resources effectively so that I could get the hell out of there asap.

If I'm going on a simple walk where I doubt I need to "survive" more than a few hours/over night, whatever that's in my pocket could be pressed into emergency use. I don't carry low quality stuff, so I think I could press a ZT or Spydie or even a basic SAK into service long enough to not die and maybe not even break my tool in the process.

 

[Nottingham Forest]

I've seen lots of cheap knives fold back the wrong way..

This is what bothers me. Ok it was a cheap knife but it was still possible to push a steel pin back through the liners with force. Maybe this is where the modern peening techniques come into play ... and probably better pinning materials and liners!

Maybe this is what Ray meant when he said 'fold back', not fold close with lock failure.

 

[john april]

i had a benchmade lock fail and the blade closed on my pinky right to the bone. this was in the late 1980's and i have carried fixed blades ever since.

 

[marcinek]

This is what bothers me.

Then why even consider a folding knife? Weight is hardly an issue. What...a couple ounces more for a fixed blade? Less with a skeletonized fixed blade without scales. (An ESEE 4 with scales is only 8 ounces.)

To me, if I am doing anything where lock failure, or the blade closing on my fingers, or, Scagel forbid, the blade "folding back" (stabbing brick walls?) is a concern, I go fixed blade.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

This is what bothers me. Ok it was a cheap knife but it was still possible to push a steel pin back through the liners with force. Maybe this is where the modern peening techniques come into play ... and probably better pinning materials and liners!

Maybe this is what Ray meant when he said 'fold back', not fold close with lock failure.

If I remember correctly, it was some sort of lock back knock off of a Buck 110 or maybe even just a slip joint. The blade pushed with enough force to slip the blade past the pin and split the scale and/or frame so that the blade flexed back at about a 5 degree angle past the expected 180 degree at lock out.

The point is that these knives were used garbage being abused by a 12 year old. Stabman has a plethora of pics of him wailing away on folders, and I don't see that as abuse. He's just using them hard.

Folders are knives of convenience. I would have no issue staking my life on one, but if I was purposely trying to pull every bushcraft trick in the book, I'd rather have a fixed blade.

 

[Knives&More]

Then why even consider a folding knife? Weight is hardly an issue. What...a couple ounces more for a fixed blade? Less with a skeletonized fixed blade without scales. (An ESEE 4 with scales is only 8 ounces.)

To me, if I am doing anything where lock failure, or the blade closing on my fingers, or, Scagel forbid, the blade "folding back" (stabbing brick walls?) is a concern, I go fixed blade.

I definitely agree. While some folders are build and capable to accomplish tough tasks, they will never be as comfortable nor effective as a fixed blade for harder use tasks.

 

[Danke42]

I don't know if the ethos of "Bushcraft" lines up with the modern idea of knife hard use.

Bushcraft is pretty much thriving in the woods with a minimal impact.

The current idea of hard knife use appears to be chopping your way through cars, bricks, nails, trees, conduits, sewer pipes, doorways, city buses, badgers, cast iron bridges, phone books, console TVs, staplers, and any other obstacle you may cross in your daily travels never mind having to ram it into a tree to use a stand or stabbing multiple armored attackers. Most of the knives in Bushcraft could be mistaken for general duty kitchen knives these days.