Ray Mears: "I have seen too many folders give way"

[craytab]

Very odd thread.

Then why even consider a folding knife? Weight is hardly an issue. What...a couple ounces more for a fixed blade? Less with a skeletonized fixed blade without scales. (An ESEE 4 with scales is only 8 ounces.)

To me, if I am doing anything where lock failure, or the blade closing on my fingers, or, Scagel forbid, the blade "folding back" (stabbing brick walls?) is a concern, I go fixed blade.

Totally agree. And further, the Esee 4 is even more overbuilt, thick, and heavy than most will need, especially if they are even considering the worry of a bent back folder. I'd go with the Esee 3 instead and I bet there are hundreds of even lighter weight fixed blades that would be stronger than most folders, especially if folding back is a concern.

 

[BladeScout]

Time passes. Knives improve.

Ray has a signature folding knife made by Sypderco and sold at his website.

Wolfspyder IIRC?

Man, thats a weird looking handle.

Blade looks just right for the job though.

I like Spyderco knives and most of the looks but the handle on that thing.

Ohh well, as usual im sure there are sound ergonomic reasons - there most often is.

 

[BladeScout]

Very odd thread.


Totally agree. And further, the Esee 4 is even more overbuilt, thick, and heavy than most will need, especially if they are even considering the worry of a bent back folder. I'd go with the Esee 3 instead and I bet there are hundreds of even lighter weight fixed blades that would be stronger than most folders, especially if folding back is a concern.

I agree.

But as mentioned in another thread; maybe folks are just used to folders and cant see themselves with a fixed blade(almost) no matter what.

 

[marcinek]

I don't know if the ethos of "Bushcraft" lines up with the modern idea of knife hard use.

Bushcraft is pretty much thriving in the woods with a minimal impact.

The current idea of hard knife use appears to be chopping your way through cars, bricks, nails, trees, conduits, sewer pipes, doorways, city buses, badgers, cast iron bridges, phone books, console TVs, staplers, and any other obstacle you may cross in your daily travels never mind having to ram it into a tree to use a stand or stabbing multiple armored attackers. Most of the knives in Bushcraft could be mistaken for general duty kitchen knives these days.

Exactly. It's a "craft." Bush craft. I've seen, literally, small trees taken down with a peanut. It's all about bushcraft skills. Not brute force. In fact, the opposite of brute force.

You don't need a fixed blade. You don't need an overbuilt titanium framelock flipper. Could you use either? Of course!

But look at Nessmuk's setup.

 

[Knives&More]

I agree.

But as mentioned in another thread; maybe folks are just used to folders and cant see themselves with a fixed blade(almost) no matter what.

I think so. I prefer fixed blades unless I will be going somewhere nice where I have to dress up.

 

[marcinek]

I agree.

But as mentioned in another thread; maybe folks are just used to folders and cant see themselves with a fixed blade(almost) no matter what.

A folder is a great choice for bushcraft. Vic Farmer. C'mon...phenomenal buchcraft knife.

But it's not a great choice if one, like the OP, has this "nugget" of folder failure in their head. Then get a fixed blade. For Kephart's sakes, get a Mora. It's not like there aren't a gajillion options.

Simple.

 

[Knives&More]

Exactly. It's a "craft." Bush craft. I've seen, literally, small trees taken down with a peanut. It's all about bushcraft skills. Not brute force. In fact, the opposite of brute force.

You don't need a fixed blade. You don't need an overbuilt titanium framelock flipper. Could you use either? Of course!

But look at Nessmuk's setup.

While I agree you don't need a fixed blade, most people prefer them. Most older knives I have seen use a liner lock or lockback, which are not as strong as the Axis lock, TriAd lock, frame lock, etc. So I think its just an older way of thought that has stuck around.

 

[marcinek]

I think so. I prefer fixed blades unless I will be going somewhere nice where I have to dress up.

What does "dressing up to go somewhere nice" have to do with bushcraft knives?

This thread gets odder and odder.

 

[Knives&More]

Ultimately, everyone has a different ideology of what a knife is for. Some people use them for light tasks, while others take down trees. That's why knives vary so much in their design.

 

[Knives&More]

What does "dressing up to go somewhere nice" have to do with bushcraft knives?

This thread gets odder and odder.

It has a lot to do with things. If you are going to a 5 star restraunt are you going to bring in an ESEE-6P? Heck no, you will bring a folder.

 

[marcinek]

While I agree you don't need a fixed blade, most people prefer them. Most older knives I have seen use a liner lock or lockback, which are not as strong as the Axis lock, TriAd lock, frame lock, etc. So I think its just an older way of thought that has stuck around.

No, not really. If one thinks that buschcraft cannot be done with a slipjoint, then they do not realize, like I said earlier, that it is craft. It's not running around the woods beating the beejeebus out of innocent trees (not that there is anything wrong with that).

There is no "new thinking bushcraft" is. Maybe there is...clearly folks like the OP are worried that they are going to "fold over" the blade of a folder, breaking the metal stop pin.

Maybe while making a feather stick or notches in twigs for a deadfall trap.

 

[Knives&More]

While I agree to a certain extent. Bushcraft has expanded its meaning to include a lot more then its original meaning. A slipjoint knife wouldn't be as well suited.

 

[marcinek]

It has a lot to do with things. If you are going to a 5 star restraunt are you going to bring in an ESEE-6P? Heck no, you will bring a folder.

I must have missed the Ray Mears DVD on going to 5 star restaurants.

This is off the rails.

 

[BladeScout]

A folder fit for bushcraft?

 

[Nottingham Forest]

I don't regard this as an odd thread considering my requirements for a lighter knife as already mentioned. Yes there are lighter fixed blades but i prefer the convenience of pocket carry and none of the fixed blades can compete with my opinel on weight which I enjoy carrying and is actually very strong.

The whole thread was an inquiry into whether or not a decent folder will stand up to regular bushcraft duties as taught by Ray Mears. It seems like they can, as long as they are not subjected to non-cutting duties such as prying or chopping of which I have no need.

 

[Knives&More]

A folder fit for bushcraft?

I would say so. Good for bushcrafting.

 

[Knives&More]

I don't regard this as an odd thread considering my requirements for a lighter knife as already mentioned. Yes there are lighter fixed blades but i prefer the convenience of pocket carry and none of the fixed blades can compete with my opinel on weight which I enjoy carrying and is actually very strong.

The whole thread was an inquiry into whether or not a decent folder will stand up to regular bushcraft duties as taught by Ray Mears. It seems like they can, as long as they are not subjected to non-cutting duties such as prying or chopping of which I have no need.

Definitely agree!! I wasn't trying to be argumentative at all.That's exactly what I was attempting to explain. The meaning of Bushcrafting has expanded beyond its previous meaning to more hard duty tasks, where a fixed blade is better suited. You can see this by looking at Mora's bushcraft series, Bark Rivers large convex grind knife, etc. That's all I was attempting to explain.

 

[Danke42]

Definitely agree!! That's exactly what I was attempting to explain to Marcinek. The meaning of Bushcrafting has expanded in the past few years beyond its previous meaning.

Can you be specific in how it has expanded?

Personally I live in real life and I know what's in the bush where I live. No one is going to kidnap me and fly me to the other side of the world and expect me to spend a week transiting a desert or the tundra or whatever while they film me. I don't need to wonder about what type of greenery I'll have to cut in the woods.

A big part of Bushcraft is going to be awareness of your local conditions and what type of knife you need. If you live in a desert you're not going to need to have a parang to chop through all the vines you encounter.

Going out into your local terrain to see what you see is great way to find out. Asking random strangers on the internet with zero context to the local conditions isn't going to result in much usefull information. No doubt any minute someone will come by extolling why a must have on a Bushcraft knife is a glass breaker so you can escape from your car as it's sinking in the lake before starting the Bushcrafting proper.

My local conditions even though they are in the interior of the province mimic that of a coastal rain forest. In 2 weeks where you cut the underbrush away to make camp is nearly undetectable. If we deactivate a trail that's used by thousands of bikes, horses and walkers a year later there is no trace; it looks like pristine second growth forest. But an hour away from be West or South there's bare rock, cactus and rattle snakes. An hour North or East and I'm in Alpine. If I did the "same" in the alpine next spring all you'd see would be a rock ring from the fire if I didn't break it up. But in the drier areas you might be able to see my camp decades later just while walking by. I wouldn't be chopping down every single twig I found there among the cactus like I would back home in the wet. Hauling a golok around there might make me feel ready for anything but it sure wouldn't make sense.

Craft is never easily learned via a couple clicks on the net.

 

[James Lewis]

Definitely agree!! I wasn't trying to be argumentative at all.That's exactly what I was attempting to explain. The meaning of Bushcrafting has expanded beyond its previous meaning to more hard duty tasks, where a fixed blade is better suited. You can see this by looking at Mora's bushcraft series, Bark Rivers large convex grind knife, etc. That's all I was attempting to explain.

Agreed! Also, the BR Bushcrafter has a huge scandivex grind.

 

[Eagle Scout]

Eagle Scout: are there certain methods of peening the pivot pin and stop to create more strength against downward force? I ask this because I have heard that Victorinox for example use a different method than just regular peening of the pins in their SAks

Sorry about the delay, got side tracked today...

Would assume "peening" is another word for "hardening" via heat treating. There are so many other guys on this forum better experienced to answer this question - maybe ask in the crew in "shop talk" for specifics regarding ideal materials (and pin diameter). Usually bigger and harder is better...well, you know...(wife joke placed here).

Chances are the material would deform, even slightly, prior to failure. I'd look for a folder with hardened steel pins set into steel liners or titanium. All of my folders are frame lock, so concealed (blind) hole with the portion of the pin within the liners/handles being a larger diameter.
Often times, I carry my ZT0562cf into the woods as my only cutting tool and do it without hesitation or second thought. Have never considered the lock or materials in the knife a liability during use.

Fixed blades win for larger fire and food prep in my book, but that's usually only when I'm staying the night.

 

[James Lewis]

Sorry about the delay, got side tracked today...

Would assume "peening" is another word for "hardening" via heat treating. There are so many other guys on this forum better experienced to answer this question - maybe ask in the crew in "shop talk" for specifics regarding ideal materials (and pin diameter). Usually bigger and harder is better...well, you know...(wife joke placed here).

Chances are the material would deform, even slightly, prior to failure. I'd look for a folder with hardened steel pins set into steel liners or titanium. All of my folders are frame lock, so concealed (blind) hole with the portion of the pin within the liners/handles being a larger diameter.
Often times, I carry my ZT0562cf into the woods as my only cutting tool and do it without hesitation or second thought. Have never considered the lock or materials in the knife a liability during use.

Fixed blades win for larger fire and food prep in my book, but that's usually only when I'm staying the night.

HAHA! Eagle Scout has me dying laughing! Great joke.