Ray Mears: "I have seen too many folders give way"

[rswanson]

I generally use my knife to cut things, how about you?

Snarky. I was asking to understand for what specific cutting tasks do you need a knife.

I'm a lightweight backpacker as well and, like many in that group, have found there's almost no need for a knife at all. Nearly every seriously devoted hiker I've met carry nothing except a small SAK (myself included). There's simply no need to perform "woods tasks" while walking down a trail. Now, if there is some specific tasks you're incorporating in to your trip then that might be a different story for you. But my prior comment still stands effective. For bushcraft-related tasks, a fixed blade can as or more effective than a folder. It's certainly no worse. At about four ounces the weight penalty of a Mora is minimal compared to an Opinel 8. I strop my scandi knife in the field and have never needed to do more than that on a 4-5 day trip. And, leave it in your pack when you go into town.

Now, if the point of this thread is to enlighten everyone about how all this fixed blade knife crazy amongst the bushcraft community is overblown, then I think you're going to have a difficult time convincing them. If you haven't noticed, they tend to like their fixed blades. It seems like what your intention is in this thread is to express what's certainly an opinion as some sort of undiscovered truth. If you enjoy carrying your Opinel (which isn't what I'd classify as a good quality locker) then go for it. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But keep in mind it's an opinion. Posting some comments on an Internet forum that divide from commonly accepted practice and then following up to every reply with contrarian remarks is trolling in my book.

 

[Nottingham Forest]

rswanson: I totally get your lightweight no knife policy. I agree that if you don't want to process wood or need to slice various types of food you don't need a knife at all.

If you read the thread from the start you would see that I said I primarily use my knife for whittling. I don't think I need to qualify that by saying I do it because I enjoy it and I sometimes carry a small twig burning stove?

Your comment about a lightweight fixed blade is still valid yes, thanks for the suggestion. I have carried a fixed blade before but I found that I never batonned or pryed with it, therefore my attention turned to folding knives. A folder to me also ticks other boxes as already mentioned:

1. Pocketable
2. Non-offensive
3. Easy to touch up

These are only my personal requirements, other peoples requirements will be different. I don't see how I am trying to convince the bushcraft community to abandon their fixed blades by stating my personal requirements.

 

[AndreLinoge]

Ray Mears :"I have seen too many folders give way."

Bear Grylls: "Drinking your own urine is perfectly normal. Fine. I meant to say 'fine'."

 

[BladeScout]

 

[rswanson]

rswanson: I totally get your lightweight no knife policy. I agree that if you don't want to process wood or need to slice various types of food you don't need a knife at all.

If you read the thread from the start you would see that I said I primarily use my knife for whittling. I don't think I need to qualify that by saying I do it because I enjoy it and I sometimes carry a small twig burning stove?

Your comment about a lightweight fixed blade is still valid yes, thanks for the suggestion. I have carried a fixed blade before but I found that I never batonned or pryed with it, therefore my attention turned to folding knives. A folder to me also ticks other boxes as already mentioned:

1. Pocketable
2. Non-offensive
3. Easy to touch up

These are only my personal requirements, other peoples requirements will be different. I don't see how I am trying to convince the bushcraft community to abandon their fixed blades by stating my personal requirements.

I did read the thread from the beginning but I asked because I'm trying to understand the need to whittle during a backpacking trip. If you're just into carving for the enjoyment of it then any knife will do. I'd probably carry a dedicated carving knife.

There's no need to use a knife to feed a twig stove. I have one. But it seems that you're taking Mears' statement out of context. Although we don't have the clip to reference I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to whittling a tent peg or opening a dehydrated meal. For the tasks that Mears is usually using a cutting tool, a fixed blade is a better choice for many reasons.

 

[The Zieg]

I remember watching a clip of Ray Mears when he emphasized using a fixed blade over a folder because he has seen them fail on too many occasions while instructing. I have been scouring the internet to find the source of this link but without success. I have a couple of his series on DVD so its possible I may have seen it on there.

I remember that he used the term, 'fold back'. What was he talking about in this sense? Normally when I think of a folder failing I think of the lock-back mechanism or liner lock failing and the knife closing. Is that what 'fold back' means?

I doubt he meant the knife literally folding back on the top of your hand. How many people have seen someone exert enough downward force to rip a pin through the liners/frame to get it to 'fold back', or rip a backspring out of a slipjoint?

I am not so concerned about the locks failing in the closed direction as I don't use my knives in this way. I am more interested in the strength of folding knives used under heavy downward force in the whittling sense. I would imagine it would require a huge amount of force to get a knife to literally fold back?

JH

I like Mears's work and he has taught hundreds to thrive in the wilderness. But he may not stand by his statement if pressed too hard. Over a pint, I suspect he'd agree with us here that a folder can do yeoman work.

At 50, I'm far from the oldest active outdoorsman on BF, or even on this thread, but I can say that things have changed in the outdoors game. Before the term "bushcraft" became widespread, as kids in the 70s we called our play "woodsing." We had backyards in the suburbs and undeveloped tracts nearby where parents never came. We had forts, trees, culverts, creeks (dry and wet, depending on season and geography), traps, improvised weapons and tools, caches of food, passwords, secret writing and codes, and three months out of every year to practice our skills. When we went on vacation, our families often took us camping, where we'd do more of the same in more remote areas. And what were our knives? Usually Victorinox Swiss Army knives. Only Wengers had locking blades back then, and only one of my cohort had one. We used those Vics sunup to sundown for everything a youngster could devise. We had everything we'd have needed for a zombie apocalypse, assuming you could dispatch the undead with a BB gun. We were filthy and happy when the streetlights came on (and sometimes a mile away from the nearest one, up in the Santa Clara hills looking down hoping we could get home in time to avoid trouble) and our SAKs were dirty and sometimes blunt, but never broken or "folded back."

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'll propose Mears, his students, and anyone who takes care in the woods (and we kids were not careful!) will be able to thrive in a wide array of challenging environments with some sort of folding knife. Make it a Victorinox, Wenger, Buck, or something venerable, and all will be well. Give it a saw for poles and tweezers for ticks, and all will be better than well.

So, Nottingham, while my "woodsing" has changed to include tools like a tomahawk and puukko, I can still call on my childhood experience with the Vic Huntsman and a ball of twine to be comfortable outdoors. No doubt Ray Mears could, too.

Zieg

 

[afishhunter]

I don't regard this as an odd thread considering my requirements for a lighter knife as already mentioned. Yes there are lighter fixed blades but i prefer the convenience of pocket carry and none of the fixed blades can compete with my opinel on weight which I enjoy carrying and is actually very strong.

The whole thread was an inquiry into whether or not a decent folder will stand up to regular bushcraft duties as taught by Ray Mears. It seems like they can, as long as they are not subjected to non-cutting duties such as prying or chopping of which I have no need.

Mora.
The No. 1 and No. 2 weigh less than most folders.
Not to mention that weight carried on the belt is not really noticed by most folks after a couple minutes, if it is felt at all.

EDIT
Sorry, I did not see your post stating you carry an Opinel when I wrote the above.

 

[Nottingham Forest]

For the tasks that Mears is usually using a cutting tool, a fixed blade is a better choice for many reasons.

Yes I accept the better tool for the job is a fixed blade and I think others will also, but that is not the subject of this thread.

The thread is about whether or not a decent folder is capable of performing basic bushcraft tasks without the knife failing in the words of Ray Mears (like carving tent stakes as you suggested)

Reading some of the great contributions in the thread about many years spent in the bush with a folder it seems like they are more than capable of holding up. So with this in mind my requirements for stealthy, lightweight pocket carry (as I always like to have a knife on my person, not in the pack or on my belt) makes the folder a better choice for me under these circumstances.

Again I will reiterate, better choice for me ... not for everyone

 

[AntCaps]

I think ive seen the same clip and my assumption was that the people he was training at the time probably showed up to the course with low quality knives. When I was younger I ruined plenty of cheap knives using them incorrectly (making spears out of folders is a bad idea).
Id also assume he wants to keep his kit as simple as possible I love folders they are almost as capable as Fixed at this point in time but the less moving parts the more reliable something is and if i was actually in a survival situation reliable is what i want.

 

[Frederick89]

Before designing the Woodlore Mears used, among others, an Opinel n°8, while now has shifted to a Grohmann Slimline.

Personally for whittling alone, if on dry wood especially, I prefer a dedicated carving knife. I own and have used Opinels, but wasn't satisfied by the edge holding, but I mostly whittle and carve dry wood.