Razor edge retention

It's so bizarre that people have such wildly varying experiences with steels. I've had D2 still be able to shave after cutting up 8 boxes, while M390 hasn't made it through 4 still being able to (aside from my Real Steel Griffin and ZT 0562CF, those perform unusually well in razor edge retention). I've tried M390, S110V, M4, HAP40, S35VN, and Super Blue all with both refined and toothy edges, none of them wanted to hold a razor edge. The super slicey finished edge (toothy or refined) would go quickly and the lasting working edge would stay to take a beating. Even more odd is that I sharpen with diamonds for my stones, and I've used diamond pastes for all the above steels, namely high vanadium or tungsten ones. Little change in the rain or edge retention, unlike S30V which is a whole different beast on all diamonds.
 
It's so bizarre that people have such wildly varying experiences with steels. I've had D2 still be able to shave after cutting up 8 boxes, while M390 hasn't made it through 4 still being able to (aside from my Real Steel Griffin and ZT 0562CF, those perform unusually well in razor edge retention). I've tried M390, S110V, M4, HAP40, S35VN, and Super Blue all with both refined and toothy edges, none of them wanted to hold a razor edge. The super slicey finished edge (toothy or refined) would go quickly and the lasting working edge would stay to take a beating. Even more odd is that I sharpen with diamonds for my stones, and I've used diamond pastes for all the above steels, namely high vanadium or tungsten ones. Little change in the rain or edge retention, unlike S30V which is a whole different beast on all diamonds.
Have you tried a guided system to factor out hand sharpening? I'm not trying to suggest that's the issue just trying to find a way to figure out your problem by factoring out everything we can.

Another suggestion would be to find out the HRC and or scan the steel with an xrf xray to see the composition. Sending it to a steel mnfg or heat treatment facility.

While I don't trust it, many do... Use that machine in the videos I posted to test sharpness. Or send it to someone that has one.

Send one out to get tested by a 3rd party for a cut test or even send it to another sharpener and when u get it back, re try your tests.

Also what are the knives? I'm guessing a, few spydercos based off some of the steel types. Maybe Sal Glesser can take a look in the lab if so.

Its a bit weird your getting various results. But yea it's gonna take some time to factor everything out and see what's the problem.
 
Working edges: all the rage in the knife world. Almost all of the most popular steels rely on working edges, quickly losing the refined edge you take so long to put on. Abrasive media like cardboard is hell on edges, especially refined edges, but a few steels handle it like champions. I'm curious what all steels can hold their refined edge.

I've found that Elmax, K390, CPM154, Cru-Wear, and ZDP-189 readily hold a razor edge under pretty intense cutting. I've found M390, S90V, S110V, HAP40, Super Blue, M4, and S35VN give up pretty quickly on the razor edge. S30V is mixed, but seems most likely to hold it if sharpened with all diamonds (diamond stones and diamond pastes to strop). CTS-XHP is hit or miss, I need a little more testing to say how it goes in my experience. VG-10 and AUS-10 aren't bad, but overall edge retention is significantly lower than super steels, and 154cm is a small step up. 14c28n holds a razor edge for surprisingly long, considering the overall edge retention, same as Acuto 440, but they are lacking in overall edge retention (compared to super steels).

Interested in what others have found out.

Edit: One odd standout is M4 in my Spyderco Mantra. It held a razor edge much longer than M4 usually does. Both GBs I've had, my GB 2, and a Benchmade I can't remember the name of in M4 didn't have this same razor edge retention. Possibly different HT or the efficiency of the thin stock FFG. A shocking standout was S90V on my ZT 0095, it held the razor edge almost as well as K390. I'd say it's grind, but the Native 5 in S90V that I had didn't perform nearly as well, could be ZT heat treat of S90V.

Funny in my experience s35vn holds its razor edge longer than its other s—v cousins. Part of the reason s35vn is my favourite of this family of steels is due to the fact it has always felt like to me if s30v and 154cm had a baby, that baby would be s35vn. Actually I find the m390 bros. (Cpm20cv/cts204p) and elmax also seem to hold their razor edges longer than the s—v family (comparable to s35vn) this is just my experience.

Also along with 14c28n both 12c27 and AEB-L seem to hold a fine edge. Though they are not super steels and as you noted lack overall edge retention. No wonder, they are razor blade steels after all.

Other steels like d2 and m4 I find will readily take that razor edge back quite easily with a little touch up.
 
Probably due to what people determine is a "fine" edge. The large carbides in D2 prevent it from achieving a fine edge (also make it more prone to breaking from shock) that other smaller more evenly distributed or low carbide steels have.

But they are relatively soft chromium carbides so theoretically shouldn’t they be able to be formed into that fine edge by being cut?

Also does anyone know if there is any truth to the idea that an edge will dull over time just sitting unused? I have heard this claim but am not sure if I believe it. The argument being corossion attacks the very fine and microscopically jagged edge causing it to degrade.
 
Have you tried a guided system to factor out hand sharpening? I'm not trying to suggest that's the issue just trying to find a way to figure out your problem by factoring out everything we can.

Another suggestion would be to find out the HRC and or scan the steel with an xrf xray to see the composition. Sending it to a steel mnfg or heat treatment facility.

While I don't trust it, many do... Use that machine in the videos I posted to test sharpness. Or send it to someone that has one.

Send one out to get tested by a 3rd party for a cut test or even send it to another sharpener and when u get it back, re try your tests.

Also what are the knives? I'm guessing a, few spydercos based off some of the steel types. Maybe Sal Glesser can take a look in the lab if so.

Its a bit weird your getting various results. But yea it's gonna take some time to factor everything out and see what's the problem.
DMT Aligner to sharpen, freehand stropping at a pretty consistent angle (very little apex deformation). I've tested M390 and gotten the same results from multiple companies, Benchmade, ZT, Kershaw, Steel Will, TRM, William Henry, Rike, and Kizer. S35VN I've had from even more companies, only WE and Factor Equipment gave me a properly lasting S35VN edge. None of the S35VN or M390 performed poorly, aside from the rather quick loss of razor edges, but M390 was the big disappointment for how long it will hold an edge overall. I like linear dulling, not some weird wavy pattern.
 
DMT Aligner to sharpen, freehand stropping at a pretty consistent angle (very little apex deformation). I've tested M390 and gotten the same results from multiple companies, Benchmade, ZT, Kershaw, Steel Will, TRM, William Henry, Rike, and Kizer. S35VN I've had from even more companies, only WE and Factor Equipment gave me a properly lasting S35VN edge. None of the S35VN or M390 performed poorly, aside from the rather quick loss of razor edges, but M390 was the big disappointment for how long it will hold an edge overall. I like linear dulling, not some weird wavy pattern.

Grain size
- Simple explanation: Steel is made up of grains, smaller grains means greater toughness and strength. In depth: Smiths can vary heat treatment and forging processes to yield a finer grain size, though different steels are more easily heat treated for a finer grain size than others, this generally has to do with the alloy added, carbides "pin" the grain boundaries and prevent them from growing. The alloys with the highest melting point prevent grain growth the best. Vanadium and Niobium (Columbium) are often added to steels for finer grain. The reasons for grain size contributing to toughness and strength would require too much space to explain here. (Auth. Larrin Thomas)
ASTM definition of the Grain Size - The dimensions of the grains or crystals in a polycrystalline metal, exclusive of twinned regions and subgrains when present.


Strength
- Simple description: To resist deformation or rolling.
In depth: Strength is most greatly controlled by the Rockwell hardness scale, abbreviated Rc, though different steels can have different yield or tensile strength even with the same Rockwell hardness. The things that factor into this are grain size and alloy in solution. According to Takefu steel (the makers of VG-10) Cobalt strengthens the matrix of steel, regardless of Rockwell hardness. Carpenter steel offers tensile and yield strength numbers of their steels at various hardnesses and the variety of strength numbers while at the same hardness for different steels can be observed. Generally strength and toughness are opposed to each other, raising the hardness lowers toughness. Only decreasing grain size increases both strength and toughness. Higher strength means the edge can be thinner, because the edge is less prone to rolling.(Auth. Larrin Thomas)

Toughness
- Simple explanation: Ability to resist chipping or breakage.
In depth: Toughness is controlled by amount of carbon in solution, the hardness the steel is heat treated to, the carbide size and volume, and the other alloy in solution. High amounts of chromium weaken grain boundaries (though generally carbide size and volume is the limiting factor as far as toughness in stainless steels). Nickel and silicon in moderate amounts increase toughness without effecting strength. Carbide size and volume are probably the greatest controlling factor for toughness. (Auth. Larrin Thomas)

Wear Resistance
- Simple explanation: The ability to resist abrasive wear.
In depth: Important when slicing, especially when slicing abrasive materials like rope and cardboard. Wear resistance is important for edge holding in many types of knives, but less important in general when it comes to kitchen knives, because edge stability, strength, and toughness are more important for holding an acute, polished edge. If a cook uses a slicing cut and the edge is thick (compared to Japanese and other thin kitchen knives), then wear resistance is beneficial. Generally greater wear resistance means it is more difficult to sharpen, so even with a knife that will benefit from a steel of greater wear resistance, less wear resistance may be preferred for easier resharpening.(Auth. Larrin Thomas)

Edge Stability
- Simple explanation: Ability to hold a fine, acute, polished edge.
In depth: Edge stability is controlled most by carbide size and volume. The finer the carbide structure, the better a steel is at holding sharpness when sharpened very acutely and at a high polish. Evidences of a steel with low edge stability are losing initial sharpness quickly or chipping either while cutting or while sharpening with an acute bevel. The finer the edge and the finer the polish the more this will be apparent. Edge stability and toughness are often connected, but not always the same. Sometimes a steel can have high edge stability with fairly low toughness, or a steel with low edge stability can have moderate toughness. Blue Super has fairly high edge stability but low toughness; D2 has low edge stability but moderate toughness. Generally wear resistance and edge stability are opposed to each other since a greater volume of carbides means greater wear resistance but less toughness and edge stability, meaning one of the most important factors for selecting a steel are how much slicing it will be doing and how thick the edge will be. Usually edge stability is more important in kitchen knives.(Auth. Larrin Thomas)

Found this last bit to be rather interesting.
 
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Got a bit more use with XHP to safely say I like the steel. Doesn't hold a razor edge as long as some other steels, but it seems to hold a slightly sharper working edge than most of the vanadium steels. Not a bad performer at all, and it's nice to see a super steel that doesn't rely on vanadium carbides.
 
I don't have many knives but from what I got. I find that D2 offer edge retention as good as most of premium steels for a high-end steel and most of the ultra premium steels are not worth it if you are cutting cardboard all day. In rope cutting test I have made, a D2 knife will do almost the same number of cuts that CPM3v offers and another one in 440C that is insane, while one in 154CM scored lower than that, in reality the CPM3V should beat D2 and 154CM beat 440C by far. All my knives have a secondary bevel close to the same DPS. And I always feel like the D2 is performing better, strange.
 
I don't have many knives but from what I got. I find that D2 offer edge retention as good as most of premium steels for a high-end steel and most of the ultra premium steels are not worth it if you are cutting cardboard all day. In rope cutting test I have made, a D2 knife will do almost the same number of cuts that CPM3v offers and another one in 440C that is insane, while one in 154CM scored lower than that, in reality the CPM3V should beat D2 and 154CM beat 440C by far. All my knives have a secondary bevel close to the same DPS. And I always feel like the D2 is performing better, strange.
The reason why D2 is performing like 3V is because 3V is only a medium edge retention steel. It nears the top of the toughness chart, but is middle of the pack for edge retention, surpassing most conventional steels but falling behind many PM steels. D2 isn't a bad steel, and it performs pretty well when treated right, fitting a middle ground between 154cm and S30V. Weird considering it's a lower end budget steel mostly now. The only other budget steel that gives D2 a run for the money is BD1N, that's some true wizardry of metallurgy right there. Fingers crossed that we see BD1N become a super commonplace budget steel.

Seriously though, D2 gets knocked a lot, mainly because it's done poorly by a lot of CCC knives (if it even is actually D2, a lot of them call whatever pot metal they use D2) and ItsI old as dirt, having been around since before WW2. It's also for some reason considered a lot toughness steel, and while it is low toughness for a tool steel it still exceeds most stainless steels, and holds and edge better than all but a few stainless steel it's tougher than.
 
The reason why D2 is performing like 3V is because 3V is only a medium edge retention steel. It nears the top of the toughness chart, but is middle of the pack for edge retention, surpassing most conventional steels but falling behind many PM steels. D2 isn't a bad steel, and it performs pretty well when treated right, fitting a middle ground between 154cm and S30V. Weird considering it's a lower end budget steel mostly now. The only other budget steel that gives D2 a run for the money is BD1N, that's some true wizardry of metallurgy right there. Fingers crossed that we see BD1N become a super commonplace budget steel.

Seriously though, D2 gets knocked a lot, mainly because it's done poorly by a lot of CCC knives (if it even is actually D2, a lot of them call whatever pot metal they use D2) and ItsI old as dirt, having been around since before WW2. It's also for some reason considered a lot toughness steel, and while it is low toughness for a tool steel it still exceeds most stainless steels, and holds and edge better than all but a few stainless steel it's tougher than.

Agreed, I admit that I had one D2 that Broke in two in the middle of the blade a couple years ago that never happened with 3v, The one in D2 I have now is vacuum hardened @ 59 HRC and did not chip once since I use it. and it's true that 3v is very tough compared to D2 with relatively the same wear resistance.
 
It's so bizarre that people have such wildly varying experiences with steels. I've had D2 still be able to shave after cutting up 8 boxes, while M390 hasn't made it through 4 still being able to (aside from my Real Steel Griffin and ZT 0562CF, those perform unusually well in razor edge retention). I've tried M390, S110V, M4, HAP40, S35VN, and Super Blue all with both refined and toothy edges, none of them wanted to hold a razor edge. The super slicey finished edge (toothy or refined) would go quickly and the lasting working edge would stay to take a beating. Even more odd is that I sharpen with diamonds for my stones, and I've used diamond pastes for all the above steels, namely high vanadium or tungsten ones. Little change in the rain or edge retention, unlike S30V which is a whole different beast on all diamonds.

I hate to sound defeatist, but I'm starting to wonder if a LOT of this is a moot point. Yes, you can group a lot of steels into various buckets like Ankerson does in his thread, but I'm starting to suspect that most variations that don't make sense are due to heat treat.

I've had enough edge testing experience that I can group my knives generally from best to worst in similar buckets, then once in a while, I'll get one that just blows me away - both good and bad.

Ex. 1 I have never had a Queen slipjoint in D2 with a bad heat treat, until a couple of months ago. I got one that just won't hold an edge. Really lousy. All the rest of mine are great. had I only purchased the one, I would have written off D2 as a lousy steel for edge retention (it's not).

Ex. 2 I have never had a knife in S30V that could hold an edge until a couple of years ago, when I got a Buck Vanguard (Cabelas Alaskan Guide special). I did some testing, and almost had to sit down, I was that shocked. This thing didn't just blow away all other S30V knives, it rivaled some of my M4 and M390 knives in cutting cardboard and rope. I couldn't believe it. Up until that time, I would NEVER have anything good to say about S30V.

So while I think you have performance expectations from certain classes of steels, I think within a class of steel you will get variation as well. Whether it's large enough to skew your perception of that steel (or class of steels), I don't know. I think for some, the answer is yes, specifically S30V. It must have enough difficulty in the heat treat that a lot of companies screw it up, or at least used to screw it up when it first came out. Perhaps for steels with an "easier" heat treat, the variation is much smaller.

I don't know for sure, I'd like to hear from any makers or metallurgists what their opinion might be.
 
I have an Alaskan Guide in S30v that was not sharp out of the box, and I could not get it shaving aharp with my standard WorkSharp belted sharpener. Pretty disappointed. Recently i bought the WS Manual Guided System with their upgraded stones and strop (I'm still learning this blade sharpening thing) and it is now hair splitting sharp. That sharpening system also sharpened a Benchmade S30v Saddle Mtn Skinner to sharper than it was from BM. Changed my opinion on that steel. We'll see how they last working on a deer this fall.
 
Things just got more confusing. I resharpened my Link M390 night before last and used it last night, and it took a beating while maintaining a nice sharp edge. I've used that same knife, both refined and toothy edges, and got significantly worse performance. Needless to say, I'm confused by the wildly inconsistent performance, on my Griffin it performs slightly better, holding a razor edge through a lot of work, but on my Modus and Rike 1708 it left a lot to be desired. On the MPR it performed acceptably but nothing too special. My 0562CF is pretty good, about on par with what the Link just did, despite the much worse grind.

Why is M390 so wildly inconsistent?
 
m4 in my experience keeps it pretty well. surprised your experience didnt. guess it depends on what your cutting routine. m390 and the like 20cv/204p does pretty well in my experience. also xhp does quite well. d2 does very poorly at getting a refined edge and keeping it. I haven't done a list though.

cutting ductboard kills it on every steel and very quickly. much quicker than cardboard. as little as one partial cut really, from my experience. I cut lots of that everyday so i kinda gave up on keeping the super sharp edge. gone back to geometry and ease of sharpening, more than holds it.

There used to be a pretty common saying about D2. Something like "it takes a terrible edge and holds it forever".
 
H.E.A.T. T.R.E.A.T.
I wouldn't imagine that there would be that much variance, esepcespec between knives that have the same target Rockwell, enough to make the same steel perform in what I would consider three different brackets.
 
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