Ready to start my first Damascus blade. A Second try at etching (Vinegar)

[Sandeggo]

With ferric chloride it will have a dull grey smudge if you will on the entire blade, it looks as if it is still on your blade. It can usually be removed with a thorough scrubbing with a soft cloth. You want to hit it lightly with fine sandpaper or steel wool to get the Ni steel to shine.

 

[Col Defender]

First, for etching damascus, you want 3:1 or even 5:1 diluted FC.

Some mixes of steels don't show a huge color contrast.

It is too late now, but the best way to get bright contrast is to etch until there is a bit of "topography" to the pattern. You can feel it easily with your fingernail. Then, after etching, boil the blade for about 20-30 minutes in water with a Tbs. of baking soda or TSP. Once dried, wrap a piece of 1000-2000 grit paper around a solid backer ) steel bar) and gently work the surface. It will brighten the high spots and make a sharp contrast against the dark low spots. Clean and oil well after sanding. Don't assemble a damascus blade handle until everything else is done.

Thank you Stacy.. It's too late for this blade, but I have two others all etched and looking the same as this one. Neither one has handles yet. Could I sand them with a fine grit belt to get back to shiny steel and then re-etch with a more dilute solution of FC and do the follow on procedure you described? Maybe these two can be better than the first was.

 

[Sandeggo]

Thank you Stacy.. It's too late for this blade, but I have two others all etched and looking the same as this one. Neither one has handles yet. Could I sand them with a fine grit belt to get back to shiny steel and then re-etch with a more dilute solution of FC and do the follow on procedure you described? Maybe these two can be better than the first was.

It isn't too late if you don't want it to be. You could remove the scales and sand it with 1200 to prepare it for another etch. If the scales are epoxied on, a heat gun helps loosen the epoxy.

 

[Col Defender]

It isn't too late if you don't want it to be. You could remove the scales and sand it with 1200 to prepare it for another etch. If the scales are epoxied on, a heat gun helps loosen the epoxy.

Thanks for that Sandeggo - I will redo the two other blades I have here but the one I finished yesterday was delivered to the guy who asked me to make it for him and he is ecstatic about his knife. So is his father. I love this learning adventure and as long as I can keep improving I will be a happy camper.

 

[viral]

I know everyone says to dilute the ferric but why I should dilute my ferric acid? Is there a reason behind doing it? I have searched and searched and never found a reason. Is it something that changes it chemically?

 

[Col Defender]

I know everyone says to dilute the ferric but why I should dilute my ferric acid? Is there a reason behind doing it? I have searched and searched and never found a reason. Is it something that changes it chemically?

I hope someone in the know will answer your question Viral. I'd like to know too. Maybe to slow down the etching process and allow for some fine tuning?

 

[Andy Lewis]

^ You guys are on the right track. Diluting the ferric chloride results in a less aggressive/slower etching process. That is useful because the desirable contrast in pattern-welded steel is mostly the result of differential etching of the various alloys included in the original billet.

The common mix of 1084 and 15n20 works well partly because both alloys have similar carbon content, and require similar HT, but also because the 15n20 has ~2% nickel that ultimately resists etching better than 1084 with no nickel content. When etching a PW blade in your 1:1 ferric chloride, both alloys in the combination get hit relatively hard and relatively fast. By diluting the FC somewhere between 1:3 and 1:10 with water, you have more practical control over the outcome. Most makers clean well, etch lightly, neutralize (Windex works well too), scrub off oxides and repeat using diluted FC till satisfied rather than just one long hard etch using a higher concentration. Doing the latter sometimes results in funky unpredictable blade surfaces that are not as uniform as would be possible using multiple cycles with diluted FC and cleanup in between dips. Not to mention if you miss an oily fingerprint or the like – best find that stuff early on and fix it before it becomes a nightmare. There is also the practical advantage of having a larger volume/deeper container of etchant to work with for the same cost.

Think of what variable speed does for you on the grinder, or the needle valve on a forge burner. Wide-open, full-blast, and balls-to-the-wall operations have their place, but most of us are more comfortable, and more successful, when we can dial it all back a notch or two AND take the time to truly see/study what is happening during the given process. Maybe bad analogies here I but suspect you get the idea.

Stacy gave great advice above on the practical use of FC in #40. It would have made all the difference in contrast. That’s why there is always the next one I guess…but Col Defender, you still got a decent knife in the end. Keep plugging!

 

[ricky_arthur]

Like I stated from the start...Try this, Take one of those blades, clean/degrease it and put it in a shallow baking pan and add enough plain vinegar to cover by about 1/2 inch. put in oven at 200-210 and within minutes of the vinegar reaching temp you will have 100% improvement on those blades. Vinegar is much easier to get good results with Alabama Damascus. Use some fine steel wool in between soaking to clean off oxides.

 

[ricky_arthur]

These 2 are alabama damascus etched in vinegar.

 

[Will52100]

Nothing to add to the etching, wish I could see the pics, extremely limited bandwidth rite now, so little blue boxes.

I didn't see it addressed anywhere else in the thread, so I thought I'd add about welding a tang extension on. DON"T DO IT! At best it will be a weak spot due to oversized grain and low alloy mixed with high carbon steel in the joint. That's with several normalizing heats. As welded it'll have extremely large grain and be very brittle. Not so bad if it's a simple high carbon steel like 1084 or 15&20, but bad, bad medicine for higher alloys with any chrome in it like 52100, O1, 5160, ect. Even with the simpler steels it's not a good idea as the extreme heat of welding causes grain growth and a weak structure.

Instead silver braze an extension on. It'll be stronger than welding if done rite and has all the benefits of welding with non of the drawbacks. It works mainly due to the lower temperature used and the strength of the silver braze. Basically make a wedge shape out of one end of the tang and a V shape to match it on the extension and silver braze together. Not a bad idea to do a couple low temp normalizing heats on the joint with a torch as well. And this type extension is better with a fairly tight fit. I guess you could braze as well, not sure the melting temp of brass vs. silver braze, but both are way below that of steel.

Not saying welding won't work, it just will never be as strong as a silver brazed joint on knife steels do to the temps required for welding. Even forge welding is a lot cooler than any arc welding. I know some people who do weld there tangs on and haven't had any issues, but then there knives have never been tested to extremes before either and often have full mycarta handles that help strengthen the narrow tang.

 

[Col Defender]

Like I stated from the start...Try this, Take one of those blades, clean/degrease it and put it in a shallow baking pan and add enough plain vinegar to cover by about 1/2 inch. put in oven at 200-210 and within minutes of the vinegar reaching temp you will have 100% improvement on those blades. Vinegar is much easier to get good results with Alabama Damascus. Use some fine steel wool in between soaking to clean off oxides.

Thanks Ricky. I took the next two blades in line, buffed the pattern off and got them back to shiny steel. When I catch up on some other stuff I may do an experiment - etch one in vinegar as you have said, and the other in more dilute FC as Stacy has said and see what I come up with.

I'm really grateful for your advice - and for everyone else's. The learning goes on!

 

[Col Defender]

So..I decided to try etching with vinegar instead of FC, taking some advice from Ricky Arthur and others. This is a different blade but I think the results are noticeably better than the one farther up the thread.



This was done in the oven with white vineagar, 200 degrees F., and 6 cycles. I'm much happier.

 

[ricky_arthur]

Looks MUCH better. One thing tho, damascus and buffing don't do well together. The buffer seems to smear the lines. I would recommend a clean 400-600 grit finish, then etch, nothing above that will improve the look IMO. While etching some fine steel wool to remove oxides, I use flitz polish as a final step. Remember, the pattern is about contrasting color and depth. You don't want to smear either one.

 

[Col Defender]

Looks MUCH better. One thing tho, damascus and buffing don't do well together. The buffer seems to smear the lines. I would recommend a clean 400-600 grit finish, then etch, nothing above that will improve the look IMO. While etching some fine steel wool to remove oxides, I use flitz polish as a final step. Remember, the pattern is about contrasting color and depth. You don't want to smear either one.

Thanks Ricky - and I guess I was lucky in that just before I etched it this morning, I cleaned it up a bit first with 400 and then with 600 grit.

Incidentally, this blade was originally etched in FC just like the finished one earlier in this thread and then I buffed most of what the FC etching had done off, with 220/400/600 grit. Now I have NO plans for further etching on this blade. I am not familiar with Flitz, but I do have some Mothers polish which I use occasionally. Should I try polishing the blade with some of that? (And if this is helpful, I have a "scrap blade" (no pics) which I have taken through the entire process including this morning's etching so I could try try the polish on it first. I have tried throughout all my knifemaking learning process to do any procedure which is new to me on a blade I don't really care about, or even a bit of scrap metal so I do not totally ruin something I do care about.)

Thanks again

Steve

 

[Rhinoknives1]

I Always just use white Apple Vinegar to etch any carbon steel Damascus or to bring out a Hamon. The other great thing about the Vinegar is I can do it inside on a cool winter even and just dump it down the drain when done without any concern of pets or people.

When I etch Stainless Damascus I use the Ferric Chloride because stainless will just laugh at Vinegar. deleted 5-1. I want all the contrast I can get and I'm not in a hurry with ether etch chant.