Reasonable Knife Evaluation

[Karda]

I guess when you really have nothing pertinent to add your argument, attacks such as the last few posters become acceptable. It really shows why Outrageous Expectations have become the norm ,and Common Sense is thrown aside.

When you end up out in the wilderness or any unforgiving scenario you wish, with your single favorite knife, unprepared and with no Common Sense, it is NOT the manufacturers fault.... but your own. All the Skewed thinking in the world is not going to save you, nor any knife for that matter.

 

[busselover]

When you need to hack someone out of a crashed vehicle, you go ahead and use your common sense. I'll use my BUSSE with confidence because I know it can handle the task without failure.

 

[3Guardsmen]

I guess when you really have nothing pertinent to add your argument, attacks such as the last few posters become acceptable. It really shows why Outrageous Expectations have become the norm ,and Common Sense is thrown aside.

Nope. Knife marketing has done that. You shouldn't blame the consumer for trying themselves to see if the product lives up to the hype. That's Sharp Phil's problem. He simply doesn't understand that concept. If a knife is marketed as a 'sharpened prybar', it had better damn well live up to it. It's about accountability!

When you end up out in the wilderness or any unforgiving scenario you wish, with your single favorite knife, unprepared and with no Common Sense, it is NOT the manufacturers fault.... but your own. All the Skewed thinking in the world is not going to save you, nor any knife for that matter.

Not sure where that last paragraph came from, but I agree that the absence of common sense in a life or death situation is tragic thing!

Regards,
3G

 

[Karda]

Nope. Knife marketing has done that. You shouldn't blame the consumer for trying themselves to see if the product lives up to the hype. That's Sharp Phil's problem. He simply doesn't understand that concept. If a knife is marketed as a 'sharpened prybar', it had better damn well live up to it. It's about accountability!

Who and what does marketing play to?> Outrageous Want's and Expectations from the end user, It's a vicious circle largely controlled by demand. If an end user is going to be so gullible as to not think things thru, then who is to blame...it's is not the manufacturer or the marketing specialist.
Marketing tools have always been marketing tools and in the end the Onus of "accountability" still falls on the end user.

Anyone with at least a small amount of common sense will realise that all steels have their limits....even when used in Busse's and prybars. To expect more than what that steel can give is an Outrageous Expectation.

Which brings us back again to "Common Sense" and "Reasonable Evaluation" of both knives and lifes issues.

 

[hardheart]

To expect more than what that steel can give

how much is that

 

[theonew]

how much is that

Apparently you haven't been paying attention. That goes back to "common sense"

 

[neeman]

Abuse vs Reasonable Use

12 years in an Army Rescue Unit.
Very heavily based on good equipment.
Very tight specs on usage.
Any use over specs that resulted in breakage would be charged to the whole unit as a fine.
That was training...

We also knew the 'real' limits of the equipment.
And we would have no qualms in using the tools to the very limit if we were rescuing live.

Crossing over the line of the specs and extending the use of the tools is definitely abuse of the tools.
But this abuse is only effective if we knew the actual breaking point of the tools.

I do not need destructive test on my stockman slippie, but I would like to know the breaking limit on a $40 Kabar so I know how far I can push this tool.

 

[3Guardsmen]

I do not need destructive test on my stockman slippie, but I would like to know the breaking limit on a $40 Kabar so I know how far I can push this tool.

Exactly! And I maintain that there is NOTHING wrong with trying to find the breaking point of a knife that's built for 'hard use'! I absolutely see a problem if one were to try to return said knife under warranty, if said warranty did not cover such testing, but there is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING wrong with testing your gear any way you see fit!

Regards,
3G

 

[3Guardsmen]

Who and what does marketing play to?> Outrageous Want's and Expectations from the end user, It's a vicious circle largely controlled by demand. If an end user is going to be so gullible as to not think things thru, then who is to blame...it's is not the manufacturer or the marketing specialist.
Marketing tools have always been marketing tools and in the end the Onus of "accountability" still falls on the end user.

Anyone with at least a small amount of common sense will realise that all steels have their limits....even when used in Busse's and prybars. To expect more than what that steel can give is an Outrageous Expectation.

Which brings us back again to "Common Sense" and "Reasonable Evaluation" of both knives and lifes issues.

Wow! That's all I can think of to say to someone who thinks that it is reasonable for a manufacturer to make any sort of claims they want, but if and when the product falls short of the claims made, it's somehow the end line user's fault. And YOU have the audacity to actually try and define what reasonable testing of said product is!?! Unbelievable!


3G

 

[Karda]

Wow! That's all I can think of to say to someone who thinks that it is reasonable for a manufacturer to make any sort of claims they want, but if and when the product falls short of the claims made, it's somehow the end line user's fault. And YOU have the audacity to actually try and define what reasonable testing of said product is!?! Unbelievable!

Whats truly "unbelieveable" is the lengths you guys will go to, to throw things out of context while missing the point altogether.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Whats truly "unbelieveable" is the lengths you guys will go to, to throw things out of context while missing the point altogether.

Well then, Karda, why don't you state your point again? I don't recall you really having one, but if you did, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt for "us guys" to hear it again. And when you say, "you guys," who exactly are you referring to, and please be specific?

Thanks,
3G

 

[shecky]

I guess when you really have nothing pertinent to add your argument, attacks such as the last few posters become acceptable. It really shows why Outrageous Expectations have become the norm ,and Common Sense is thrown aside.

Karda is correct. Sharp Phil's reviews of Mantis knives are irrelevant. To attack him on that basis is deceptive. There are plenty of valid ways to attack his complaints about destructive testing without getting personal.

 

[A.P.F.]

Exactly! And I maintain that there is NOTHING wrong with trying to find the breaking point of a knife that's built for 'hard use'! I absolutely see a problem if one were to try to return said knife under warranty, if said warranty did not cover such testing, but there is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING wrong with testing your gear any way you see fit!

Regards,
3G

But what about a very real scenario, where one's 'testing' results in micro fractures, metal fatigue (which is stochastic and cumulative in nature) and other hidden stress induced problems.

Should one even trust a knife that has been seriously misused and 'tested' in a manner that was never intended by it's design criteria? I know that I wouldn't.

 

[theonew]

Well then, Karda, why don't you state your point again? I don't recall you really having one, but if you did, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt for "us guys" to hear it again. And when you say, "you guys," who exactly are you referring to, and please be specific?

Thanks,
3G

3Guardsmen let it go. Phil will probably be awake soon to argue that you are missing the point due to a logical flaw in your syllogism and are therefore mistaking the symptoms for the causes thereby creating cognitive dissonance.

 

[theonew]

But what about a very real scenario, where one's 'testing' results in micro fractures, metal fatigue (which is stochastic and cumulative in nature) and other hidden stress induced problems.

That's why a lot of people here never even use their knives.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Karda is correct. Sharp Phil's reviews of Mantis knives are irrelevant. To attack him on that basis is deceptive. There are plenty of valid ways to attack his complaints about destructive testing without getting personal.

Shecky, you're absolutely right on this point. I shouldn't have included that information in debating Phil's position. Sorry about that, to Phil and anyone else I may have offended.

3Guardsmen let it go. Phil will probably be awake soon to argue that you are missing the point due to a logical flaw in your syllogism and are therefore mistaking the symptoms for the causes thereby creating cognitive dissonance.

Lol!



My main point of contention is that Dr. Sharp Phil has taken the position in previous debates that Knife companies with ridiculous, over the top, mall ninja style advertising aren't responsible for legislative rulings that result and have a negative effect on knife ownership, and he has stated that we, as knifenuts, shouldn't be upset by what we deem irresponsible knife advertisement. Yet, on the other hand, he says that people who test their knives to failure are responsible for the setting of unreasonable performance expectations of knives, and somehow, we as knifenuts should be upset by this. I know Sharp Phil considers himself an "unfair fighter," but in my mind, this is hypocrisy, plain and simple!

Regards,
3G

 

[3Guardsmen]

But what about a very real scenario, where one's 'testing' results in micro fractures, metal fatigue (which is stochastic and cumulative in nature) and other hidden stress induced problems.

Should one even trust a knife that has been seriously misused and 'tested' in a manner that was never intended by it's design criteria? I know that I wouldn't.

I absolutely agree with you, but we're talking about finding the breaking point of a knife. We're not talking about testing a knife to just before the point of failure, not breaking it, and then depending on it to perform up to par. That would be rather pointless.

When I buy knives that I plan to use hard, I usually buy them in pairs. One to test and use hard, and one to keep in pristine condition. If I'm not satisfied with the way the 'tester' performs, the pristine one gets sold or traded and the 'tester' becomes a 'beater'. If I'm happy with the level of performance the 'tester' shows, the pristine one will end up as my 'go-to' piece should the need arise.

I could very well argue the point that my personal testing of my knives, which may very well be 'unreasonable' in Dr. Sharp Phil's eyes, is beneficial to the knife industry, in that I buy more knives than I really need.

Regards,
3G

 

[neeman]

I absolutely agree with you, but we're talking about finding the breaking point of a knife. We're not talking about testing a knife to just before the point of failure, not breaking it, and then depending on it to perform up to par. That would be rather pointless.

When I buy knives that I plan to use hard, I usually buy them in pairs. One to test and use hard, and one to keep in pristine condition. If I'm not satisfied with the way the 'tester' performs, the pristine one gets sold or traded and the 'tester' becomes a 'beater'. If I'm happy with the level of performance the 'tester' shows, the pristine one will end up as my 'go-to' piece should the need arise.

I could very well argue the point that my personal testing of my knives, which may very well be 'unreasonable' in Dr. Sharp Phil's eyes, is beneficial to the knife industry, in that I buy more knives than I really need.

Regards,
3G

I am very happy for someone else to break the knife!
Hence an external testing person, who will not be named

 

[Phil Elmore]

I think it's funny that the creator of The Martialist, advertised as being "for those who fight unfairly" is on a one-man mission against those he feels test knives unfairly. Hypocrisy at its finest, folk!

So, you're incapable of actually discussing this issue, and must instead make irrelevant personal attacks?

There's a distinct difference between evaluating a tool in context and discussing self-defense theory. I also tell people who leave loaded guns lying around the house that they're violating fundamental principles of operability and safety, too. Should I instead applaud the way they "store guns unfairly?" You're being silly. Plus, you're letting your emotional involvement with this concept get the better of you. Calm down.

 

[Karda]

3guardsman: Maybe, if you can put your personal animosity aside,slow down and read my statement in it's context you will understand what it truly means more clearly. I never said it was alright for makers to claim anything they want, that was your statement. I also never stated that it was your job or anyone elses to hold them "accountable" for it.

Despite any marketing strategies. What is truly hypocrisy is that "Hard Use" and "destructive test" advocates drive the makers into making hard use knives...use them beyond the steels limitations and then claim your abuse is holding the makers "accountable". Like it or not the end user drives the market, is the reason for marketing strategies and also pricing( among things such as tooling and steel grades used).... sooner or later all your adamant harping and supposed "testing" will drive the makers to build a knife noone will break or be able to afford.

He who knows that he doesn't know, is ignorant.
Teach him.

He who doesn't know that he knows is asleep.
Wake him.

He who knows that he knows is wise.
Follow him.

He who doesn't know that he doesn't know is a fool.
Shun him.

Phil: You are right, those that are too blind to see, never truly do.
You've done a good job on the video and i commend you for it!!