Reasons for sharp angle on front of handle scales?

[RX-79G]

Just to make this perfectly clear, here's a picture of a full tang knife. It can't be made with a one piece guard, because the hole in the guard would have to be so large to fit over the widest part of the tang at the butt that it would hang out above and below the ricasso.

Less than full tangs, like on the Randall 14 or Trailmaster, allow the maker to get the guard on - but they have to sacrifice tang dimensions to do it.

You can use multi-piece "guards", which we call bolsters, but they make the knife weaker because of the pin holes in the tang.

 

[RX-79G]

Not really. It's not that difficult to shape a bit of radius on the front of the scale after it's mounted to the blade, and achieve both a comfortable front and crisp "joint" where it meets the spine. You just have to exercise a bit of care to avoid scratching up the blade.

You can make whatever shape you want, before or after mounting the scales. After is just making it harder. My point was that you want the contour at the spine to match the contour mid bolster, or it is ugly.

The maker of the OP knife could have put any angle or contour they wanted on that scale. A curve takes only seconds longer to grind than a flat. It is an aesthetic choice, not some major manufacturing shortcut.

I'm speaking as someone who makes knives and makes scales for existing blades.

 

[archieblue]

Im'm sure it is so the user can get his/her grip as close to the blade/edge as possible and still have some "meat" on the handle to grip. If it tapered down you would either have to grip the taper or the taper would cause space between your index finger and the edge causing unwanted leverage. If there is a finger choil that goes past the handle scales, a taper could be handy/comfortable depending on the overall design. In the case of the OP's pic I would guess that the maker chose the outcome solely based on aesthetics and crisp lines. A little masking tape on the blade tight up against the Micarta and very few light passes with a fine sandpaper will do the trick no prob.

 

[mtangent]

Thanks for all the education guys. So most common answer seems to be it's very difficult to shape, as the shaping happens after the scales are permanently attached.

In regards to the handle butt with maple burl I have...sounds technical to fix. I will continue reading.

It's not that difficult. Just work by hand, with paper or file, & you will get a shape you want. think about it & keep reading until you know what you want. The hardest thing sometimes is to match a finish; sometimes best to refinish the whole handle. The worst mistake is to scratch the blade; protect with tape, & use the right tools. Be aware that some files have no teeth on the side, these are useful for this kind of work. Avoid power tools.
In a knife you obviously intend to use, a perfect finish won't last long, & you will end up refinishing or ignoring wear marks over time anyway.

 

[daizee]

It's only difficult to shape if you do it after the handle slabs are affixed in place.
After the pin holes are drilled and before the scales are epoxied into place is the time to shape the front of the handle.
Put the scales together and align them with the pins in place.
Shape away. When shaped and polished they can be affixed to the tang. No more work on them is necessary.

As to the square edges... it is way easier to square up and polish a square handle like that than it is to evenly contour the handle front and have it match side to side. Squared end is just a matter of pushing the blocks against the platen. Done & off to polish.

The pins would have to be re-fit precisely, almost impossible.
Its not hard to hit that edge with a file or a slack belt toward the end of the handle shaping. That's what I do. Your pic looks like a brkt, and I'm surprised by the squareness of their handles in general. Its an extra step, and requires a little hand finishing followup to match.

 

[rustyrazor]

The pins would have to be re-fit precisely, almost impossible.
Its not hard to hit that edge with a file or a slack belt toward the end of the handle shaping. That's what I do. Your pic looks like a brkt, and I'm surprised by the squareness of their handles in general. Its an extra step, and requires a little hand finishing followup to match.

respectfully Daizee, I'm gonna argue with ya on this one... I've come do do most of my slab style utility type blades this way and if I can get it to work, it's far from impossible. I use sacrificial pins and a couple dabs of crazy glue to get the slabs where I want em for rough sanding, then once they are close I take the knife apart and use the pins to just hold the scales together while I do some of the radiuses and whatnot before gluing and screwing the whole mess together. I find it way easier than going around after with files and sandpaper trying to not scratch something by mistake

 

[rustyrazor]

You can make whatever shape you want, before or after mounting the scales. After is just making it harder. My point was that you want the contour at the spine to match the contour mid bolster, or it is ugly.

The maker of the OP knife could have put any angle or contour they wanted on that scale. A curve takes only seconds longer to grind than a flat. It is an aesthetic choice, not some major manufacturing shortcut.

I'm speaking as someone who makes knives and makes scales for existing blades.

I'd have to disagree with a couple of your points... at least with my limited ability it does take longer, whether it's seconds for you or 20 minutes for me to get the shoulder of the scales to match evenly without scratching the blade finish or handle material by mistake. so I'm not 100% sure you are correct that for everyone else it's an asthetic choice. If it is, it's quite possibly a poor one from a user's stand point in that every sharp edge can become an irritant if this blade gets used much. Not to pick on you, but your other post about making it perfectly clear what a full tang knife looks like is a bit of a misnomer and leaves a bit of wiggle room. This is what ONE type of full tang knife looks like... there are many ways to skin a cat and bark river doesn't hold the patent on full tang and many of those ways can easily accept a guard or rounded handle slabs, bolsters or whatever the imagination and innovation can create.

 

[RX-79G]

I'd have to disagree with a couple of your points... at least with my limited ability it does take longer, whether it's seconds for you or 20 minutes for me to get the shoulder of the scales to match evenly without scratching the blade finish or handle material by mistake. so I'm not 100% sure you are correct that for everyone else it's an asthetic choice. If it is, it's quite possibly a poor one from a user's stand point in that every sharp edge can become an irritant if this blade gets used much. Not to pick on you, but your other post about making it perfectly clear what a full tang knife looks like is a bit of a misnomer and leaves a bit of wiggle room. This is what ONE type of full tang knife looks like... there are many ways to skin a cat and bark river doesn't hold the patent on full tang and many of those ways can easily accept a guard or rounded handle slabs, bolsters or whatever the imagination and innovation can create.

If you're doing your shaping of the front of the scale with it not mounted to the blade, and you have the two scales taped together, the process is very fast, regardless of the shape. Doing it on the knife is doing it the wrong way.

I'm sure many people could make some arguments about what "full tang" means, but I was observing that the Randall 14's tang is no larger or stronger than other stick tangs - it is just a stick tang that is exposed on the top surface rather than being hidden in the center of the handle. "Stick tang" gets a bad rap because of tension assembled knives, but a proper stick tang knife can be immensely strong - stronger than a full tang knife with lots of cross pin holes.

As for BRK, I don't think they invented anything. I was just posting a photo of a knife that clearly illustrates why full tang knives don't have solid guards: You can't get a 2cm tang through a 1cm hole. They either have nothing, or bolsters. I have seen makers that put guards on full tang knives by constructing them in place with brazing rod, but then you have to question the temper.

I had thought I had said all that already, so what is it you are disagreeing with me about?

 

[jlomein]

Im'm sure it is so the user can get his/her grip as close to the blade/edge as possible and still have some "meat" on the handle to grip.

Apologies, my mistake for not describing enough. I only meant that some light rounding (photo below) would help some for comfort. Not enough to change one's firm purchase on the handle.

Its an extra step, and requires a little hand finishing followup to match.

I'm so glad you joined this discussion daizee. I want to post this photo example of your knives, which shows exactly what I believe knives should have from a comfort stand point: light contouring of that hard angle at the front of the scales. Your knives make me question why all knife makers don't do the same.

 

[daizee]

Hey, JLo, thanks for digging up those pix.

RX is totally right about shaping the FRONTS of the scales before they are affixed to the blade. However, since I don't know what the final contours will be before gluing, I reserve breaking those forward edges until I'm about to do the finish sanding, which is all by hand.

Personally, I don't do any to-tang shaping with the scales off the knife (except rough bandsaw cuts). I find it to be too much messing around with parts back and forth. I use a slack belt on my 1x42 to break those edges usually, but it could also be done during the hand-sanding step with the blade chucked into the vise. As soon as the glue is set, I tape up the entire blade anyway to avoid minor bumps - of course major bumps are always a risk...

As for BRKT (and I'm a big fan of the Fox River family, btw), I suspect they avoid very fine motor control operations like this because it's slow. And it's risky if done fast. They have optimized for higher production volumes, and that's a trade-off. As far as other custom makers are concerned, I don't know why we see as many sharp-edged handles as we do. They look nice in photographs sometimes because of the lighting contrasts, but my own experience suggests they're not as fun to actually *use*.

re: guards on full-tang knives
It can be done with a slotted guard. Seems like a lot of work - I'm not a huge fan of big guards on non-fighters. Many of the BRKTs, and indeed my Hiker model that JLo has pictured, do not have guards at all, even integral to the blade/handle. This arrangement requires a bit of care. On mine, you would find that the back 'tip' of the edge has a 45d bevel to reduce the possibility of cutting yourself accidentally. You can still use the entire edge. Also, too much taper to the front of the scales will cause the knife to slip deeper into your hand, which is risky with a guardless knife.

Cheers,

-D

 

[precisionshootist]

"I'm sure many people could make some arguments about what "full tang" means, but I was observing that the Randall 14's tang is no larger or stronger than other stick tangs - it is just a stick tang that is exposed on the top surface rather than being hidden in the center of the handle."

I thought the accepted definition of full tang is that the tang extends through to the end of the handle. Saying a Model 14 with a full 1/4 inch thick tang that runs clear to end of the handle is no stronger than a stick tang style knife seems pretty unlikely.
Randall has been making knives for 75 years using both methods and I would think their experience with service of their own knives over the years have proven the differences in strength between stick and full tangs as well as dispelling myths such as the strength of a hollow handle knives.

As far as the narrowing of the tang or not full height tangs you could make the argument the Bark river knife you pictured is not full tang as the handle is narrower than the blade or conversely if you simply narrowed the handle material of the model 14 so the tang shows on the bottom they would be essentially the same. The only real difference is the contour where the handle/tang narrows from the height of the blade to height of the handle.

 

[james terrio]

Thanks for the pic jlomein, it clarifies what I was talking about. Seems to be a bit of "failure to communicate" going on here...

RX is totally right about shaping the FRONTS of the scales before they are affixed to the blade. However, since I don't know what the final contours will be before gluing, I reserve breaking those forward edges until I'm about to do the finish sanding, which is all by hand.
Personally, I don't do any to-tang shaping with the scales off the knife (except rough bandsaw cuts). I find it to be too much messing around with parts back and forth.

Same here. :thumbup:

 

[Ebbtide]

The 'front' of the scales is what I was talking about as well.

 

[rustyrazor]

If you're doing your shaping of the front of the scale with it not mounted to the blade, and you have the two scales taped together, the process is very fast, regardless of the shape. Doing it on the knife is doing it the wrong way.

I'm sure many people could make some arguments about what "full tang" means, but I was observing that the Randall 14's tang is no larger or stronger than other stick tangs - it is just a stick tang that is exposed on the top surface rather than being hidden in the center of the handle. "Stick tang" gets a bad rap because of tension assembled knives, but a proper stick tang knife can be immensely strong - stronger than a full tang knife with lots of cross pin holes.

As for BRK, I don't think they invented anything. I was just posting a photo of a knife that clearly illustrates why full tang knives don't have solid guards: You can't get a 2cm tang through a 1cm hole. They either have nothing, or bolsters. I have seen makers that put guards on full tang knives by constructing them in place with brazing rod, but then you have to question the temper.

I had thought I had said all that already, so what is it you are disagreeing with me about?

Don't take it too much to heart chief, I am just playing devils advocate in regards to the two points i didn't find clear and consequently had to counter point. Shaping, sanding and rounding things to match perfectly and contouring them for comfort is always going to take longer by some margin than leaving them square or blunt, whether it's 2 minutes for you or two hours for someone else. This is likely why most companies that are shoving large numbers out the door are keeping corners square and scales hardly rounded... because it saves time, materials and money. 5 minutes here and there doesn't mean much to me who makes 5 knives on a good month, but if i'm turning out 100 knives a day if i save 5 minutes on each knife thats 500 minutes saved plus abrasives, so i would say it plays a factor in some peoples decisions. The other point was simply that there is more than one way to do a full tang knife and a lot of options for guards and whatnot... clarifying to the uneducated reader your quote that "Just to make it perfectly clear, here is a picture of a full tang knife" Yes... it is, however there are other ways to do it. none of this was meant to give you a hard time, i just found your posts to be way too 100% to be unbiased, and i thought I would shed a bit of light for someone reading this and thinking "oh... that is the way it is and no other"

 

[RX-79G]

"I'm sure many people could make some arguments about what "full tang" means, but I was observing that the Randall 14's tang is no larger or stronger than other stick tangs - it is just a stick tang that is exposed on the top surface rather than being hidden in the center of the handle."

I thought the accepted definition of full tang is that the tang extends through to the end of the handle. Saying a Model 14 with a full 1/4 inch thick tang that runs clear to end of the handle is no stronger than a stick tang style knife seems pretty unlikely.
Randall has been making knives for 75 years using both methods and I would think their experience with service of their own knives over the years have proven the differences in strength between stick and full tangs as well as dispelling myths such as the strength of a hollow handle knives.

As far as the narrowing of the tang or not full height tangs you could make the argument the Bark river knife you pictured is not full tang as the handle is narrower than the blade or conversely if you simply narrowed the handle material of the model 14 so the tang shows on the bottom they would be essentially the same. The only real difference is the contour where the handle/tang narrows from the height of the blade to height of the handle.

Stick tangs also commonly run the full length of the handle:

That's why "full tang" is usually defined by the fact that the tang runs to the top and bottom of the scales, as well as the full length. A Randall 14 does not, and is arguably less strong through the handle than a knife of the same dimensions, but with steel running to the top AND bottom of the scales.

If you can find a definition of "full tang" that is different, I'd be interested. But I think you're just confusing "full length tang" and "full tang", which are pretty different.

 

[daizee]

Same here. :thumbup:

When JT agrees, I know I'm barking up the right tree. Or know that at least it IS a tree.

 

[RX-79G]

When JT agrees, I know I'm barking up the right tree. Or know that at least it IS a tree.

A couple of points:

While a square edge can save time, I really don't think the knife in the OP is guilty of that. The matching flat front AND butt tell me it is an aesthetic choice. And, as others have pointed out, it is a practical choice too because it maximizes the amount of good grip you have on the scales before the blade starts. With a knife with little to no ricasso or finger choil, you don't want or need a rounded scale because the scale is the closest you can get to the cutting edge. I think the OP scale design is very practical and attractive given the blade contour.

This, on the other hand, I find very unappealing:

The front edge of the scales in this photo are rounded in parts, but then have sharp corners as they approach the tang. If that contour had been performed completely before gluing, the maker wouldn't have had to had that edge round and square. I also do the final shaping of where the scales meet the tang after gluing, but you can get those front curves correct to match where you will be sanding in few enough steps that it is more worthwhile than this fish-nor-fowl approach. But I'm certain many folks would disagree with my aesthetic judgement. I would say that this knife, like the OP knife, doesn't appear to benefit from a contour when the edge is so close to the handle. That's just less secure grip real estate.

Overall, I don't think that high end knife producers working with labor intensive oil quenching steels are all about "cutting corners", and that has little to do with the shape of the scales.


And a knife with a guard that doesn't go all the way around is a bolster, and bolsters are usually less strong than a guard or a solid scale.

 

[rustyrazor]

or maybe they just use great steels and save time elsewhere... and then again, unless I asked them why they did anything I would rather not speculate.

 

[james terrio]

When JT agrees, I know I'm barking up the right tree. Or know that at least it IS a tree.

That tree probably has bark on it. Other than that, it's anyone's guess.

A couple of points:

Thank you so much! I'm sure glad you finally spoke up to clarify and gently correct all these bizarre misconceptions about design, comfort, aesthetic judgement, and actual manufacturing processes on scales large and small, about which so many folks who've been happily making and selling and buying and using knives for years have obviously been woefully clueless. Let us not forget your very gracious and thoughtful reminders about the lexicon - shall we say, the vocabulary - of knifemaking. Our clients are deeply grateful, as well.

I would be very pleased if you would bless us with a few glimpses of your work... if that's not too much to ask.

 

[RX-79G]

That tree probably has bark on it. Other than that, it's anyone's guess.



Thank you so much! I'm sure glad you finally spoke up to clarify and gently correct all these bizarre misconceptions about design, comfort, aesthetic judgement, and actual manufacturing processes on scales large and small, about which so many folks who've been happily making and selling and buying and using knives for years have obviously been woefully clueless. Let us not forget your very gracious and thoughtful reminders about the lexicon - shall we say, the vocabulary - of knifemaking. Our clients are deeply grateful, as well.

I would be very pleased if you would bless us with a few glimpses of your work... if that's not too much to ask.

Hi James,
You sound like an authority figure that is peeved that I don't realize I'm in the presence of an authority figure. Are you a famous knife maker that I'm insulting because I stated my opinions about knife making?

This one was ground and heat treated of 50100B with homemade micarta:

This is a Mora blade I reprofiled, blued and mounted in micarta and hardwood:

Here's a one piece handle I made for Becker BK14s that extends the grip:

I don't have any of the forged stuff uploaded to photobucket, but a glimpse is all you asked for.

Everything I have posted in this thread is my educated opinion. I wasn't even aware that my opinions were so grossly different than the other knifemakers' to have warranted your disdain. And some of my comments were to people who aren't knife makers to clarify construction methods.

Since it is a discussion forum, if you would like to discuss any of this, I'm happy to. But there is no need for the smack down.