Reasons for sharp angle on front of handle scales?

[james terrio]

I'm not an authority figure, I'm not peeved, and there is no smack-downery involved here.

Thanks for sharing your work; looks good from here. Keep at it.

 

[RX-79G]

Thanks. You keep at it, too.

 

[B34NS]

It's cheaper to leave them for most production purposes as it would add time, money, and hands to finish appropriately.

 

[ToddM]

It's cheaper to leave them for most production purposes as it would add time, money, and hands to finish appropriately.

Sadly it seems that's the motivation for many design choices in the knife world these days.

 

[rustyrazor]

Hi James,
You sound like an authority figure that is peeved that I don't realize I'm in the presence of an authority figure. Are you a famous knife maker that I'm insulting because I stated my opinions about knife making?

This one was ground and heat treated of 50100B with homemade micarta:

This is a Mora blade I reprofiled, blued and mounted in micarta and hardwood:

Here's a one piece handle I made for Becker BK14s that extends the grip:

I don't have any of the forged stuff uploaded to photobucket, but a glimpse is all you asked for.

Everything I have posted in this thread is my educated opinion. I wasn't even aware that my opinions were so grossly different than the other knifemakers' to have warranted your disdain. And some of my comments were to people who aren't knife makers to clarify construction methods.

Since it is a discussion forum, if you would like to discuss any of this, I'm happy to. But there is no need for the smack down.

those are some decent looking knives ya got there. Don't get me wrong.. I still don't agree with everything you said, lol.

p.s. couldn't help but notice the extra care you took to round the handles for comfort.... nice touch. (couldn't resist)

 

[Bradford]

It is actually fairly easy to run a tool around the outside during the machining process, I'm surprised to see so many that leave it sharp. For example this G10 scale has a fillet all around, it's easiest to see from the top view, it breaks that sharp edge nicely. You can also do a chamfer or radius family easily.

 

[Ebbtide]

Just to make this perfectly clear, here's a picture of a full tang knife. It can't be made with a one piece guard, because the hole in the guard would have to be so large to fit over the widest part of the tang at the butt that it would hang out above and below the ricasso.

Less than full tangs, like on the Randall 14 or Trailmaster, allow the maker to get the guard on - but they have to sacrifice tang dimensions to do it.

You can use multi-piece "guards", which we call bolsters, but they make the knife weaker because of the pin holes in the tang.

"Can't" ?

That Loveless guy put the guard of from the blade end for these.
[imghttp://imageshack.com/e/p5aMES7Yj[/img]

Newt Livesay made this one with a full tang.


And just incase a credibility check is in order...

I don't have a shop to do the steel work I have, for example, put handles on these three... there are more...

 

[Ebbtide]

Just to make this perfectly clear, here's a picture of a full tang knife. It can't be made with a one piece guard, because the hole in the guard would have to be so large to fit over the widest part of the tang at the butt that it would hang out above and below the ricasso.

Less than full tangs, like on the Randall 14 or Trailmaster, allow the maker to get the guard on - but they have to sacrifice tang dimensions to do it.

You can use multi-piece "guards", which we call bolsters, but they make the knife weaker because of the pin holes in the tang.

"Can't" ?

That Loveless guy put the guard of from the blade end for these.

Newt Livesay made this one with a full tang.


And just incase a credibility check is in order...

I don't have a shop to do the steel work, I have, for example, put handles on these three... there are more...

 

[RX-79G]

those are some decent looking knives ya got there. Don't get me wrong.. I still don't agree with everything you said, lol.

p.s. couldn't help but notice the extra care you took to round the handles for comfort.... nice touch. (couldn't resist)

Yeah, they all have a fair amount of ricasso territory, so I rounded the handle edges to holding the ricasso would be comfortable.

If they have no ricasso, like the OP knife, I would not have done that because the closest point to the blade would have been on the scale, not in front of it.

 

[RX-79G]

"Can't" ?

That Loveless guy put the guard of from the blade end for these.

Newt Livesay made this one with a full tang.


And just incase a credibility check is in order...

I don't have a shop to do the steel work, I have, for example, put handles on these three... there are more...

You're making my point. The ones you have pictured with one piece guards have tangs that are much smaller than the blade/ricasso and they do it with a 90 shoulder that the guard butts up against. The handles end up being normal size because the blades are so wide.

I can't speak for Bob Loveless, but I'm 99% certain that the guard in that picture is made with two pinned bolsters. The grinding hides the seams and pins, blending them into what looks like one piece. A fine way to do it, but like putting shoulder on the tang, the bolster pin holes sacrifice some strength.

Here's a really classy way of doing it:

On this Schrade, the raised guard is part of the blade. It was likely forged that way. Blade makers don't do this very often because you either have to start with 1/2" flat stock that is the width of the guard and grind all of the blade and handle area down to the final blade width, or forge it, which is not fun. You can see the really nice curved transition from the side of the blade to guard, avoiding every kind of stress riser. It is hard to imagine a stronger design.


The current fashion in the bushcraft/combat/survival world are full width tang knives with the top of the blade and handle in a straight line, and the edge/lower handle pretty close to. They tend to avoid having a lot of holes close to the blade. (BRK, Survive, Becker, Rat, ESEE, Enzo, Busse, etc.) All that is done for strength because choppers and batoning is so fashionable. That kind of knife shape is near impossible to put a one piece guard on, and bolsters are relatively weak because of the holes and the interruption of the scale.

 

[TAH]

I'm sure many people could make some arguments about what "full tang" means, but I was observing that the Randall 14's tang is no larger or stronger than other stick tangs - it is just a stick tang that is exposed on the top surface rather than being hidden in the center of the handle.

While not considered a full tang, Randall 14's channel tang construction is stronger than a typical stick tang. The tang is 1/4" thick x 7/8" wide. The reason behind this design is to keep the tang as wide as possible while allowing the handle material to remain in one piece, thus eliminating the risk of handle slabs cracking off.

Technically, Randall only makes one full tang knife and that is the Model 10. In this case, the handle slabs are tapered as they transition to the blade.

 

[james terrio]

"Can't" ?
That Loveless guy put the guard of from the blade end for these.

Very true... knives with the blade narrower than the front of the handle look a little weird to me, though. But it definitely works.

For you forgers... If my info and memory is correct, many of the classic "California bowies" from the 1800's were made with straight full tangs, had the guards fitted, then the tangs were forged again to give them the shape/taper they wanted...

... thus, a full tang, hilted blade with a butt wider than the front of the handle. I find that style very aesthetically pleasing.

One way to put a double guard on a full-tang knife is simply to cut the profile with a lower guard as you normally would, and "wrap" a slotted piece of (whatever) around it from the top. So it's pinned/soldered like a two-piece bolster, but it's one piece that has a solid projection on the spine side as well.

Or of course, just start with a wider bar and cut both upper and lower guards into it.

(that's not my work obviously, just an example I found on the web) You could easily put bolsters on a piece like that.

 

[chiral.grolim]

...That's why "full tang" is usually defined by the fact that the tang runs to the top and bottom of the scales, as well as the full length. A Randall 14 does not, and is arguably less strong through the handle than a knife of the same dimensions, but with steel running to the top AND bottom of the scales.

If you can find a definition of "full tang" that is different, I'd be interested. But I think you're just confusing "full length tang" and "full tang", which are pretty different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_(weaponry)

A full tang extends the full length of the grip-portion of a handle, versus a partial tang which does not. A full tang may or may not extend the full width of the handle.

To assert that a tang is only "full" when exposed along the belly and spine is wrong. It bears no indication of how much material is missing between those bits or how thick it is, e.g. skeletonized tang, tapered-tang. What about the pins/tubes holding those slabs in place? how thin must they be for it to qualify as "full" tang? What about the Fallknivens with rubber-overmold - not "full" tang because you can't see the metal except at the pommel?? What if i wrapped the handle with a thin layer of opaque tape - no longer "full" tang?

Furthermore, one-piece guards on a full exposed tang knife (most Loveless-style drop-point hunters feature this, along with a tapered tang:

 

[onojoe]

It seems to me that the squared off corners is a result of leaving more handle material up front to aid grip and prevent the hand from moving forward onto the blade. The same way a guard would have prevented that from happening. Contouring it would seem to help force the hand forward onto the blade in harder use situations.

There is a guy on the tube (virtuovoice) who has a ton of bark river knives and in of his review videos he compares the same model knife with different handle material, but they have different handle shapes. It looks like it boils down the craftsman who is making working on the handle and his personal choice.

 

[RX-79G]

While not considered a full tang, Randall 14's channel tang construction is stronger than a typical stick tang. The tang is 1/4" thick x 7/8" wide. The reason behind this design is to keep the tang as wide as possible while allowing the handle material to remain in one piece, thus eliminating the risk of handle slabs cracking off.

Technically, Randall only makes one full tang knife and that is the Model 10. In this case, the handle slabs are tapered as they transition to the blade.

And here's a pick of it:

It is, indeed, meaty. But I don't think there is a typical for stick tangs. I'd expect this V shape to be just as strong once the epoxy dries:

Knives that break inside the handles, stick tang or full, break in the first inch after the blade. That is usually near a sharp shoulder, or at a hole.

I think the ultimate strength is probably not a full tang knife, but one where the tang is 80-90% the height of the handle, but the handle is bonded all the way around it with no holes at all.

 

[Ebbtide]

James, those old bowies were often made with framed handles.
A tutorial here
http://beknivessite2.homestead.com/cokebottlehandle.html

A photo from the tutorial

The frame was usually nickel silver that didn't patina or rust from handling like the forged carbon steel would.


Also...
Here is a WIP of a Loveless style chute knife. Done as Loveless did his.
http://peu.net/mods/cuchillos/loveless/

 

[RX-79G]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_(weaponry)


To assert that a tang is only "full" when exposed along the belly and spine is wrong. It bears no indication of how much material is missing between those bits or how thick it is, e.g. skeletonized tang, tapered-tang. What about the pins/tubes holding those slabs in place? how thin must they be for it to qualify as "full" tang? What about the Fallknivens with rubber-overmold - not "full" tang because you can't see the metal except at the pommel?? What if i wrapped the handle with a thin layer of opaque tape - no longer "full" tang?

Furthermore, one-piece guards on a full exposed tang knife (most Loveless-style drop-point hunters feature this, along with a tapered tang:

If you want to use "full tang" as a descriptor that is different than "stick tang", then you need to decide that it doesn't just mean "full length", because stick tangs often are. You also can't just call it a "full width tang", because the BK14 I put up before is full width but not full length.

So I guess you need us to use the term "full length AND width tang" to describe the knives that everyone else is calling "full tang" - like Beckers, BRK, ESEE, etc.

And wrapping the edge in something strong can completely change the way you use the materials. Three layers of linen micarta would be more than enough to make pins unnecessary on a "full tang" design. No pins = no holes = stronger tang.


If you think these terms are imperfect, I agree with you. But "full tang" means an exposed spine all the way around and all the benefits AND problems that go with that.


Ebbtide,
Thanks for posting those excellent links. Really interesting stuff!

 

[Ebbtide]

You're welcome

 

[Vicarious Reality]

Esee are the only ones that properly angle the front of handles horizontally afaik
As for vertically, i have some Fällknivens that i clumsily tried to fix that edge on

 

[james terrio]

James, those old bowies were often made with framed handles.

Indeed, many but not all were. That's a whole other barrel of monkeys. (I wasn't there, just repeating what I read in a couple articles. )