Recomendations,HOW TO's and TUTORIALS

S

shane justice

Joined
May 12, 2003
Messages
1,606
Guys,

Maybe I got this wrong...but I see a lot of guys in the MAKER'S area
who are using the thread tools...in my mind in a different way than was intended.

It's ok to tell me if I have it wrong...

But if you start a thread with a bold heading, Recommendation doesn't that mean you are giving your "OK" on something...like maybe another maker, a business, or even some new technique?

If you start a HOW TO doesn't that mean you are adding some information...like suggesting some new idea or series of ideas on HOW TO do something...instead of opening a HOW TO and then say, "HOW DO I MAKE A KNIFE?"

And finally shouldn't TUTORAIL mean I want to show you all how I made this really cool knife...like Bruce's recent Pirate's cut-n-shoot?

Don't get me wrong...I have prolly had my share of threads where I did not think the question or idea through...and where a bit more homework and I might have discovered the answer myself.

But honestly, I see this sort of thing as a way for people to get attention rather than to impart information that would benefit all of us.

I know there are a lot of guys of all ages who are just beginners...we all started somewhere. But I have posted this before and I will say again...it takes time experience and effort to be able to form a good question. Even if a guy starts by reading a book or magazine (Which most of us did when we got started) and then starts accumulating tools or wants to build a forge...there is so much free information on the Net already that there is no excuse for a beginner to come in and ask, "What kind of metal do I use to make a knife." Or my personal favorite..."How do I put a handle on a knife?"

I know I know...I will take some heat for this... what it comes down to is the future of this MAKER"S area. At one point I suggested, (and I have seen this in other forums) that until a guy is able to satisfy a MODERATOR of his experience level, he is not allowed to post threads.

I honestly think that a lot of top name guys will become frustrated and move on to other forums if this is allowed to continue. I would add that if this policy were to change it might also draw some more maker's into this forum.

Mr. Moderator,

I expect you will move this to some other part of the forum, but I think it involves this area specificlaly. If this stuff continues it will affect the future of this portion of BF.

Shane

PS. I finally paid my knifemaker dues so I could participate and contribute where it matters $ to support BF. This thread was only meant to help and not harm. However if you have posted one of the threads I mention ,maybe and you are offended. Please understand that it will benefit you in the long run.
 
I guess I'll chime in... since this section is called "Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers, I don't really see a problem with using it to ask questions. In fact, I see this as the most useful area of the whole forum. I would have been lost if it weren't for the help of the many fine makers here that have guided me since I started. Perhaps what is needed is a revision of the prefixes used to start threads. Maybe a counterpart of "Recommendation" could be "Opinions Wanted" and "Tutorials" could be countered with "How do I..?" or something similar.... just a thought.

-Mark
 
I agree that these headings are being misappropriated. Could lead to confusion later on when folks are searching threads.
 
shane justice said:
.....But if you start a thread with a bold heading, Recommendation doesn't that mean you are giving your "OK" on something...like maybe another maker, a business, or even some new technique?.......
Click to expand...

Shane, note that it says "Recommendation?", with the question mark, indicating it's a request for opinions.
Perhaps "How to" would be more appropriate with a question mark, too.
 
I can see where you're coming from Shane. It's just kind of annoying usually. What used to bug me the most was a thread title like "How do I?" Now that you can wave your cursor over a thread title and see the first few sentences of the post it doesn't bug me so much. Just never understood that I guess.

The funny one I see sometimes... rarely... is when people use the icon to go with the thread title and they post it with the orange thumbs down...
icon13.gif
thinking it's a question mark! :D That definitely gives you a different vibe going into a thread. :)

While we're at it... I think the "jerk-it" emoticon should be exchanged for one like the "hiding behind couch" or "drooling" or "bowing" or something that could be used in fun. The "jerk-it" ALWAYS gives a bad tone to whoever's post it's in. Just MHO :)

Spelling and punctuation is a whole different issue ;) :D

Oh, and +1 to Fitz's post above. :)
 
I use the jerk it or wink when I'm using sarcasm, because most people can't tell cyber-sarcasm... ;)
 
I always thought "How To" was "How do I?" and "Tutorial" was "Here is how you do .."

Seeing as I started this mess. If you get a good answer from a "How do I?" then it it becomes a "Here is how I do.." so in both cases it should be useful to the original poster and future readers.
 
To everybody,

I truly appreciate the tone you guys all took. I honestly figgered I would come back to a raging flame war.

Thankfully that did not happen.

And I take all of your points and accept them all as valid.

As a maker, (maybe I don't hardly qualify as that anymore since I finish a knife once in a blue moon) my only hope would be to help things be stronger...and better for all.

I realize we all start somewhere.

I was just hoping there would be a strong voiced opinion that having a small "newbie" area where some of these guys could dig in...and research their questions...and then actually build a knife...before they start shooting out question after question...when they have not even taken the bull by the horns yet.

Prolly, the more broke down I get the less patience I have. And I do apologize if anybody got hurt feelings.

I came back to BF because I had such a great experience a few years back. It meant the world to me to be back amongst you all...I just dont want to see it die because nobody wanted to be a CRUD by saying what they were thinking.

Hands down...I would put the TOP guys here against any of the other forums.

And I dont want that high class group walk away...because it becomes over run with this sort of thing.

Shane
 
scottickes said:
That's too much information! :p
Click to expand...

Oops thought I was in the Cove.;)

The stickies area helped me out alot, some of the links no longer had pics, and some of the web links were not there anymore. It really does need an update. I read through the posts, and when I didn't understand I posted a question. I was guilty of using the How to? and the Recommendations? I really don't think that you could just read the stickies and make a knife. At least I couldn't, and I know I am not the brightest star in the sky. Maybe the mods could post some more rule on posting etiquette. Thanks for not running me off when I asked too many dumb questions guys.

Shane you are absolutely correct on the caliber of folks that are on here. A+:thumbup:
 
OK Shane, I'll bite...

In regard to the prefixes, I'm indifferent. They don't really make the subjet jump out at me. Maybe its because they are confusing to me like you say. I've pretty much blocked them out as I'm looking through the days posts.

Now, on the other hand, I think that the question answer thing, regardless of ignorance or intelligence is a benefit to all at some point or another. I for one have asked questions that I could have surfed the net for but since I am inherently lazy I came here for a quick easy solution to my problem. :) On the other hand, I've answered many of the same types of questions to the best of my ability because I also like to help people. I guess what I'm trying to say is that regardless of experience sought for or dished out, this game is or should be about give and take for all. I don't know my head from a hole in the ground when it comes to making knives, and even less when it comes to putting thoughts into words, but when I'm lucky enough to be able to contribute to someone elses success I feel good about helping out. Geez, maybe I'm just selfserving and self centered. I'm going to dig a hole and cry. :(

Rick

PS. By raise of hands, how many of you have made new friends and good contacts on here regardless of your experience? I think this forum is a great social opportunity if nothing else. It gets all of us crazies together in one place and makes it easier for the authorities to take a census. :)
 
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I really dont want to see it separated at all. If I get tired of seeing too many "is my home depot steel good?" threads, then I just don't look at them/reply.

It would be just the same if there was a "newbie" forum.

My hang-up on that, is how do you differentiate what constitutes a newbie? I've met guys that have been making knives for 25 years that haven't tried half that stuff I have. And I've met guys doing it for a year that have tried stuff I haven't yet.

So where does "you can post here, but he can post there" start and stop?

I was really just nitpicking with my first post. The posts that look like a teenager's text message bug me way more than any subject lines do. :)
 
Sometimes the thread lists get cluttered up with "dumb questions". I've asked many myself, and I understand how that can be frustrating to you more experienced guys. But it is indeed the "Q&A" forum, after all.

See the second quote in my sig line... a classic example of a "dumb" question. I took the poster's name out, because I don't intend to make fun of him; he was asking an honest question, got a lot of honest answers, and subsequently gave me permission to use the quote. The quote makes me chuckle because we were all that "dumb" at one time.

Shane, I'm not offended by your comments at all. But I'm against restricting newbies from posting or starting threads. For every ten doofuses that ask a couple "dumb" questions and fade away, maybe one will stick around and turn out to be a good maker; I think that's worth it.
 
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Good Morning !

First of all ...

I do hear all of your opinions. And I understand that sometimes, we learn more trying to teach others.

I would also support the idea that what ever level of experience you have earned there is a debt to be re-paid to the teachers who helped you get there.

So, to be respectful to those at the higher levels of accomplishment we should teach those who know less so that the "masters" have time to answer our questions, when they come around.

Sort of like the old apprenticeship caste...

Master teaches the journeyman, journeyman teaches the apprentice, apprentice keeps his mouth shut.

However, I feel it is highly disrespectful for an "apprentice" to walk in and expect that, all the knowledge should be laid down before him without he does some work first. The higher his level of commitment to the craft, the more he will earn to be taught.

Hence my idea that some of these thread should be re-directed.

I had this happen to me a while back whenI asked about ventillation systems and Farmer Phil nudged me toward the archives toward some threads to look up. SO...what I did...because I had not been a paying member I had to ANTE UP and pay my money so I could access thate information.

I showed my commitment to the group and to my craft by not wasting somebody elses time because they had to re-type information from a previous thread.

I would hope anybody who has the bug would do the basic research to get thier feet wet.

Instead of asking "How do I put a guard on a knife?"

The question could be more appropriatley stated and show the individuals skill level by asking "What is the best way to put a brass guard on a knife with a through(stick) tang if I only have hand tools?

This question shows that the individual knows the difference between the different stlye of tang. It also allows the reader to realize the limitations of the author's shop.

I hope that makes sense.

I will state again that right now there is more written material in print and on the NET than ever before. It doesnot take a lot of money to get started...and if a guy can afford a computer...he has enough money by far to put a shop together. Wayne Goddard has written more on the subject, in simple layman's terms than anyone...and his book will set you back...less then $20. That is not a big amount of money these days.

So...there you go.

Shane
 
Whenever I have a question I have gotten the best answers in this forum. Every day this is the one forum I stop in and look over the topics to see if there is any question I can help with and to see if a topic catches my interest. I do not actually make the knives I use but I learn a heck of a lot about fixing the problems I run into on them here.

I do have a 50+ page tutorial I wrote on doing the stonework I do and how I work with a factory knife in doing the re-scale. If anyone is interested I have a link on my webpage. If Sparks or a moderator wants to host it on this site I can send it on a CD.
 
Not too long ago, a good buddy of mine asked me what he could do to help me with my knife making venture. In a nut shell my answer was "give me honesty". I want brutal honesty from my friends. I can't better myself without it. If Mom or some other person I trust is always telling me that my knives are beautiful then I naturally feel that I've arrived. I propose that instead of appreniceships we simply need more honesty around here. If someone (including me) asks a stupid question tell them so or ignore it all together. Nobody is holding a red hot poker to my rearend forcing me to answer anyones question or to tell them that their latest knife is fantastic work. That kind of false encouragement will only serve to make us all weaker as a group. But then again, maybe I should keep my mouth shut because the more ugly and poorly constructed knives that are out there, the more my knives will hopefully stand out.;)

I think Darwin had it right... Let natural selection sort it all out.

Rather than a ranking system or apprenticeships maybe the thoughtless questions should be ignored rather than supported. Has anyone ever heard the term "enabling"?

Rick
 
Aww Rick,

I appreciate your honestly and it takes courage to say what's in your heart.

Speak on, man.

I got no fear for any man's words...

And honestly Rick, I do ignore a lot of the threads for exactly that reason.

However, when I see a post like Bruce's Pirate Pistol suddently disappear to the third page in the wake of fourteen questions from the same guy that basically adds up to "Then what do I do?"

I say, "Dang it that is enough."

I have been a member of a few oither forums...and I have seen it go much smoother for everybody.

I think we can still honor the guys just starting out by giving them a place where they can ask questions.

But I also think it is important to honor the people who invest their entire lives to the craft...by allowing them to have a place where they are free from a lot of the pressures of seeming like a nice guy and answering the same questions everytime anybody who is "just curios" to ask as many hare brained questions as he wants without somebody od something to slow him down first.

Rick you and I have been in some flame wars here...and I honeslty think if we started telling folks...Hey man...what the heck kind of a question is that?"

We will end up with nothing but a battle field of emails and cruddy threads.

THAT is counter productive.

I aint to sart...but it seems like it is odd that two guys who do not know each ohter noticed the same thing at the same time...Me and Stacy came up with the same BEEF.

Like I said...I hurt to much to see straight most days...and I am doing good if I can get out of bed...let alone...go to work...stand straight and walk tall.

Knifemaking is the only time I get a chance to forget for a little while...and being here is a part of that. I hate to see it go to pot without I try to do something to make it better for EVERYBODY.

I cant type no more.

Rick..I hope you and me are still Bros...this whole forum ain't worth as much to me as a friend. I only have three or four in the world as it is. Cant afford to lose one.

I gotta say this...

Why would anybody..who is serious and expect to be taken seriously..come into a good group like this ...with a handle like "REDRUM"?

And then to top it off...pay monery to have the word "knifemaker" under his name...and then admit...I don't make knives...but I come in here for information anyway...and then have the BRASS CAJONES to try to hauk his tutorial...on his website...

I think that stinks.

I think this forum out to have the ..."Use your own name or stay out "rule.

That way we can all..."look each other in the eye" and be held accountable for what we type.

Ok...I am done ranting.

Anybody who knows me...will know I stand up for what I love.

ANd they will also know to have patience with me...as I am struggling right now.

That said.

I will stand by my words.

Shane
 
Shane,

Once again, i'm not doing a very good job of expressing myself. I must be coming across like I disagree with your thoughts. Not at all. I think it was Nick that said it a little earlier... Where is the line drawn? How does someone graduate from newbie status to experienced to master? Until those parameters are defined I don't see how anything can be changed other than through "kind" honesty and ignoring what bugs each of us. I think having a 2 year old runnin around here has helped me in the ignore it department. :).

Don't EVER worry about the Bro's thing. We're good! There aint nothin better than a good meat and potatoes discussion. How would anyone here truly come to know anyone else if we didn't fly our colors once in a while. Which brings me to the anonymity thing you brought up. I've read it here on this forum before from others and both of us have experienced it first hand in flame wars of years past. IMO when people get to hide behind an anonymous moniquer they tend be more of a "personality" than if they were ridin on their own name. Of course this isn't always the case. I for one tend to take someone less seriously if they're riding a "REDRUM" horse so to speak. The part that doesn't make sense to me is, and I changed my user ID from "Baumr" to my name becuase of it is...if I'm a knife maker and I want to sell what I make, marketing is all about name recognition. But to each their own I guess.

Rick
 
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