Recommendation? - Hand Files

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May 19, 2013
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Is there a dedicated thread to hand files and metal removal tools yet? I'm looking for the coursest, fastest cutting file out there and would like one that will last. I'm practicing stock removal with a hacksaw and hand files right now. I've done alright with a Brazilian-made Nicholson double cut half round 10" for roughing out the blade, but I've gleaned a few good words for Grobet (Swiss) and Simmonds (USA) here on bladeforum. What do you guys swear by? Also, would course sandpaper on a stick cut faster?

Please keep the discussion on hand operated metal removal. Loud power tools are out of the question right now as I am living/ working in a second floor apartment and don't want to create a disturbance. I will be more than happy to go electric when I have my own shop space, but things are going to be more primitive till then.

Thank you.
 
I've been very happy with the quality of my Nicholson Mill-Cut 10" (USA) bastard file and a Nicholson Mill-Cut 10" (Mexico) Second Cut file. I don't see why they wouldn't last as long as they are used properly. I would highly recommend picking up a box of sidewalk chalk and a good quality file card (file cleaning brush) and you should be set to go.
 
I've been very happy with the quality of my Nicholson Mill-Cut 10" (USA) bastard file and a Nicholson Mill-Cut 10" (Mexico) Second Cut file. I don't see why they wouldn't last as long as they are used properly. I would highly recommend picking up a box of sidewalk chalk and a good quality file card (file cleaning brush) and you should be set to go.

I have the 8" version of the second cut file by Nicholson. I've been using it to refine my blade profile and shape after the rougher double bastard does its work. I believe there may two more aggressive grades for the rough shaping : "course" and "rough"

I haven't seen "rough" or "course" at any hardware stores, maybe I should check a welding supply or saw& tool shop. Maybe I'll break down and buy online. I do like holding something before I buy.

Stereo Pete, I agree on the cleaning brush, but what do you use the chalk for?
 
The chalk helps prevent the metal filings from binding in the teeth. Something that I learned from this forum and I must say it works quite well.
 
That's a great idea! Those metal filings leave nasty gouges on the knife when they remain stuck in the file teeth. I've been clearing the teeth between each stroke on my jeans or file card during the refining stage. I'll have to try the chalk. Thanks!
 
I'm using files to cut my bevels, and have learned alot about them lately. The Nicholson Magi cut's I've heard work really well, but I have no experience. The Simonds Multi Kut is an awesome file that I use, very very similar to the Magi Cut. You are correct.....the Nicholson files made in Mexico are hit/miss.....but the ones in Brazil seem to be a step up in quality. I've also heard that searching Ebay/Amazon and others for NOS (new old stock) files is a way to go. They are older files of better quality that never sold. You might try that route. I know some guys like to get quality, but fewer files, and others go for cheaper files, but buy more of them. Personally, no faster than I'm making knives right now, I like the quality files like the Simonds Multi Kut. I'm sure the Pferd files, Grobet files, and other high end files are sweet to use, but rather expensive. If you want quality files that aren't too bad on the wallet.....I recommend the Simmonds brand of files, particularly Multi Kut. Try the Nicholson Magi Cut as well, tho! The bigger the file, the coarser the teeth. A 14" Bastard is much coarser than a 10" Bastard.
 
That's a Nicholson file isn't? I'll get that 12 incher if it's made in Brazil or the USA and test it. I've heard the Mexican made files are hit an miss, though. Thanks for the recommendation!
Thanks! I thought bastard cuts were the same coarseness regardless of length. I'll be getting the biggest file I can find, then.
 
Forgive this long post. There's several threads on files lately, and they coincide with my somewhat recent interest in files as well. Here's some of what I've learned through browsing company catalogs, machinist sites, woodworking sites, and then from my own experience with recent file buying binges.

vixen / curved tooth mill files, super shear files, Iwasaki carving files

The most aggressive type of file for metal that I know of are vixen files, or sometimes called curved tooth mill files. It's used in the auto body and aircraft making industry. Cuts very aggressively but leaves a smooth cut. There are variants in its design. It comes either somewhat flexible so that fits on sort of a curved cradle handle and used on large surfaces almost like the way a woodworker would use a hand plane. There are also more conventional ones shaped like what we're used to in flat or half-round files. They work great on wood as well. Several manufacturers make them. I have an old new stock labeled Sandvik, I know Nicholson and Simonds also made them. I don't know how the newer Brazil made Nicholsons or newer Honduras made Simonds compare to the older USA made ones because I've just been making the effort to get nos USA Nicholsons or Simonds (among other brands) during my recent buyings.

Among the variants of the vixen file design, there's a version where the there are chip breaker grooves cut into the milled curved teeth. Those chip breakers are used to clear out metal filings from the teeth more easily, and you'll see that idea used again on other file types made for metal removal. Nicholson calls theirs Super Shear Cut file. The curved teeth on these are also offset at an angle. Meaning it looks like you're looking at the arcs from a quarter of a circle, whereas in the regular vixen files you're looking at more like semicircular arcs. I think that offset angle causes that shearing effect that Nicholson named theirs after.

The Japanese have a version of the curved tooth mill file with chipbreakers in their Iwasaki carving files. These are probably the most aggressive files you can get. I only know of woodworkers using them though, and they rave about them. Their super fine cut can remove wood faster than a rasp yet leave a surface as fine as a second or smooth cut file. I have the super fine in the smallest size, and it does cut wood very aggressively and you have to use a light touch and basically shave off wood. I can't imagine what their coarse teeth would be like. The wood workers I've read who've commented on them only need to go up to their medium cut and say that it's plenty of wood removal for them. I don't know how well they'd cut metal, but they claim that their files have harder teeth than any known file. But maybe the aggressive teeth isn't good on metal in the same way that you wouldn't want to cut metal with a saw with big teeth. They do work on wood like a dream. So if you want to shape your handles, I would recommend getting their smallest and finest cut files to start out.

Due to the curved design of the teeth of these types of files, I don't think they would work for draw filing because you won't be cutting at the correct angle. I haven't used them on metal at all because I love these files so much that I don't want to risk damaging them if I mistakenly use them on ferrous metal when they're built for softer metal and wood. Like I said, they were designed for auto body and aircraft building, and in the case of the Iwasaki quick wood removal. If anyone gets one of these and tries it on steel, please do let us know how they work out.

I have a 10" nos Nicholson Super Shear, an 8" Sandvik Multifile (almost identical to the Nicholson Super Shear), a 12" nos half Sandvik half-round vixen file, and Iwasaki carving files in 110 mm Extreme-fine cut half round as well as flat. I love all of these.


Magicut, Multicut, and Chipbreaker files

The next class of files for metal have more traditional straight diagonally cut teeth. They're all single cut files (which apparently work better for metal than double cut teeth). They all have chip breaker grooves cut at intervals to help remove metal filings from the teeth (but chalking the file is still a good idea).

Nicholson's Magicut has the chipbreaker grooves set closely together and at the same angle, so it ends up looking like a very rough double cut file. But it's actually a single cut file with lots of chipbreakers.

Samuraistuart mentioned he has a Simonds Multi Kut (or Multicut or Multi-cut, depending on the listing), which is of the same idea, but the chipbreaker grooves are cut in a diamond pattern so have a very distinctive easily recognized look. Pferd and Grobet call theirs Chipbreaker files and they have the diamond shaped pattern chipbreaker grooves like the Simonds.

I have a 12" nos Nicholson Magicut, two 12" new stock Pferd Chipbreakers (one of which I ground the sides smooth to make into safe edges).

These types of files feel a lot sharper and more aggressive than the traditional bastard files that we're used to. But they're not as aggressive as the curved tooth mill files. I haven't had that much time using them yet. From my guess they'd work great at shaping the profile of a knife and also roughing the bevels.


Long Angle Lathe Files

As their name suggests, they were designed with people who file while the stock is turning on a lathe. They're all single cut and come in coarseness from bastard to smooth. But because of the higher angle that the teeth are cut at, they end up working really well for us in draw filing.

When you're filing in a conventional stroke pushing the head of the file forward and handle of file trailing, theoretically it would be the most efficient if the teeth of the file is perpendicular to the surface being cut. Most conventional files that we're used to, whether single cut or double cut, have their cutting teething set at 30 degrees. I'm not sure on why 30 degrees, probably to get shearing action in and also to reduce chatter. When we turn the file 90 degrees to do draw filing, those teeth end up being now 120 degrees (or 60 degrees depending on how you look at it) to the stroke. This makes it less perpendicular and more parallel to the stroke, which reduces cutting efficiency.

The long angle lathe files have teeth at 45 degrees. When you turn the file 90 degrees to do draw filing, the teeth are still at 45 degrees to the stroke. So they work much better for draw filing than conventional files.

Plus their sides are already safe edged so you can better use them to file the knife's shoulders.

Important: If you're going to draw file and pull the file toward you, be sure to hold the handle in your left hand and the head in your right. If you're going to draw file by pushing the file away from you, then hold the handle in your right hand and the head in your left. Holding the handle in the correct hand positions the teeth of the file to cut. Otherwise you'd be dragging the back of the teeth's cut against the blade blank, which not only would not cut anything but also dull your file's teeth.

I have a 12" nos Nicholson bastard cut, a 10" second cut Grobet-USA (which is crappy, more on this later), and a 10" second cut Mercer (bought at Uncle Al's in 2006). I love the nos USA Nicholson.


The rest

There's a ton of different shapes out there that have less specialized teeth than the ones I mentioned above. Things like half-rounds, mill files, hand files, triangle files (more commonly called 3 square), round files, square files, etc. come in single cut or double cut, with roughness from bastard to second to smooth, or they can follow Swiss pattern cuts which go in roughness from 00 - 0 -1 - 2 - 3 etc up to 6 for the smoothest. These you just choose the shape, size, and roughness you want. These are the files that we're more used to, being available in hardware stores or easily found.


BRANDS

This is what I've found from reading other people's experiences and some from my own. In short, these days if you want the highest chance of quality you either have to pay up by buying Swiss made Grobet (make sure it's Swiss made), or some harder to find German made files (not any better than the Swiss Grobet anyway), or use some effort to track down older American made files (particularly Nicholson).

The older American made ones can probably be found easiest through eBay, since most local hardware stores have probably already sold out of their American made stock unless you have a real small store tucked away somewhere unknown. Search eBay for "nos" files, which stands for "new old stock" files. Other good nos American brands to look for are Simonds, Heller, Disston. Don't just take the auction description at their word though, because nos to some sellers may just mean something that's been sitting around for 2 years, which would include some of these Mexican or south American made Nicholsons, or Honduras made Simonds, which I don't trust. And don't trust a stock photo showing a Made in USA stamp either, because the seller could just be lazy and put up a stock photo thinking that all files are the same. Not that he's scamming you, just that it doesn't occur to him that it's important to you where it was made due to quality concerns. So ask the seller to check the stamping on the file that he is selling and will be sending that it's stamped Made in USA if you're buying a nos American made.

Rant on Grobet-USA. This was a real downer for me. Grobet is a reputable company, considered by many to be the best file makers in the world. They have a USA division. That combination gave me assurance and I fairly recently bought 4 new Grobet-USA files from a reputable supplier. They were very disappointing. One was a small bastard cut square file that is just plain dull and hardly cut. Another, a 10" long angle lathe, is warped out near the head. The other two, half round files at 8" and 6" second cuts, aren't as good as a couple of old, made in India half round files I bought back in the early 80s when I wasn't concerned about quality and just bought the cheapest files I found at the cheapest hardware store. I don't know if this is a recent Grobet-USA thing or not. I've seen photos of Grobet-USA files where the Grobet-USA is stamped on the file. The ones I got the logo was sloppily stencil etched. Seeing how there doesn't seem to be any made in America file companies anymore, I wouldn't doubt that Grobet-USA has also shipped theirs south of the border to be made. There is no country of manufacture stamp or etching on the ones I bought. I also wouldn't be surprised if back in the day Grobet licensed their name to a reputable American company to represent them in the US market. Like I could easily see Nicholson making their files and stamping it Grobet-USA back in the day. But now, either I got 4 out of 4 bad ones, or the company that has the license to the Grobet-USA name has also shipped the work outside the US without regard to keeping quality up. I would not recommend new Grobet-USA files. Swiss made Grobet though, I have several needle files of, and they are superb. I would not hesitate to buy Swiss made Grobet.

India made brands. The ones I have are surprisingly good files. Like I said just above, the two I have from India that I bought for $2 each back in the 80s have held up very well. As a matter of fact, I would say that my India made 10" bastard half-round is sharper and more aggressive than the coarser nos 14" bastard half-round Simonds Nucut made in USA that I bought on eBay. That made in India file is stamped Aces. I have a smaller bastard half-round made by JK Tools in India, which I recently learned makes more files than anyone in the world.

Warrensville and Mercer Tools, two smaller American companies who've been making files for at least a couple of decades, have their files made in India. I have some nos India made Warrensville needle files that I recently bought on eBay to try out, and they work quite well. And as mentioned previously in the post I have a 10" long angle lathe file from Mercer Tools that I bought at Uncle Al's in 2006 which is pretty good (better than the recent Grobet-USA one). So maybe India made files are a good option if you're having trouble finding nos USA made or don't want to shell out the bucks for Swiss made Grobet.
 
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I recently bought a set of Bahco files as they were recommended to me, I was replacing an old set, I've been using them for a few months and I'm really impressed with them especially considering what I paid. Always considered Bahco as a kind of entry level tool maker but may have to have a closer look.

I don't know all the technicalities, what metal they're made from or any of that, but for me they remove more metal, nice smooth strokes, less effort, the handles are super comfy and they're nice and easy to control.

I don't make knives but I have a workshop so can use whatever loud powertools I want but I value my files as much if not more than all my grinders and sanders, they're used daily.

I haven't been impressed by the Nicolson files i've used, but don't believe they were made in the USA.
 
Something I've noticed that I'm not pleased with:

They must have changed the production process on half round files.


I learned to love half round files because of their versatility.

If you had a hole you needed to open up, you could get the tip of a half round file in and gradually file it larger

advancing the file in further as it got larger and keeping a nice radius as you went.



This works because they are somewhat tapered towards the tip.


I have noticed that the files I've seen in the last few years are all perfectly straight the whole length.


This includes the hardware store branded ones, hardware store retail Nicholson's, and the Brazil labelled Nicholson's from industrial suppliers.



I haven't tried any others lately since at my local suppliers, you can't see before you buy.
(and I don't want to be that guy that asks for stuff and then say's no I don't want that)


Can you recommend any that are still known to be tapered ?


Nicholson
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Great info in these posts. I'm using a Kearney & Foot smooth file for lots of stuff. A family hand-me-down. Anybody hear of that co.?
 
I came across some Kearney & Foot while searching for nos files. Other than that I don't know anything about them.

12345678910, I did a quick search on some retailer sites and it does look like a lot of the listings for Nicholson half-round files are now non tapered. On an eBay search the Nicholson half rounds that are tapered are all Swiss pattern files (Swiss pattern doesn't mean Swiss made) with roughness designation in numbers. In my Grobet catalog, the only non-tapered half round file is the Pipeliner file which is designed for welders to remove scale and file down welding beads, all the other half-rounds are tapered. My Sandvik half-round vixen file is also non-tapered, and its original purpose was for metal working as well, while my four other half-rounds from different brands and of different sizes are all tapered. I guess the only thing you can do is just search a suggested brand and make sure that its half-round is tapered. By the way, the file in your second photo with the horse logo is a Pferd file from Germany.
 
I came across some Kearney & Foot while searching for nos files. Other than that I don't know anything about them.

12345678910, I did a quick search on some retailer sites and it does look like a lot of the listings for Nicholson half-round files are now non tapered. On an eBay search the Nicholson half rounds that are tapered are all Swiss pattern files (Swiss pattern doesn't mean Swiss made) with roughness designation in numbers. In my Grobet catalog, the only non-tapered half round file is the Pipeliner file which is designed for welders to remove scale and file down welding beads, all the other half-rounds are tapered. My Sandvik half-round vixen file is also non-tapered, and its original purpose was for metal working as well, while my four other half-rounds from different brands and of different sizes are all tapered. I guess the only thing you can do is just search a suggested brand and make sure that its half-round is tapered. By the way, the file in your second photo with the horse logo is a Pferd file from Germany.

The top oic is sorced direct from Apex ( which owns Nicholson and other tool suppliers, buy up the good brand names then moves production to low wage / low regulatory countries.

The bottom photo, thanks for the reference to the "Pferd" brand name.

I'll special order it if I have to, but my suppliers all still carry Nicholson..I guess I'll have to look into it more.
 
I've been happy with Nicholson files. The one I use most is a Mill cut. It is amazing how much longer a file will last if you alway use chalk and a file card. They also cut better and leave a better finish.
 
Great post Grapevine. I don't have much to add, other than larger files of the same cut designation are usually more aggressive, and afaik the Super-Shear type files were usually regarded as soft-metal work designs. If used for steel, be sure to follow appropriate break-in procedure with all files, and especially the curved milled tooth types. Going to town at high pressures with course teeth files without a proper break-in will dramatically reduce the life of a fine quality file, and encourage problems.


I recommend everyone have atleast one 12" or 14" course magicut, supershear, or 00 cut hand file. I also recommend atleast one course 0 or 00 set of swiss pattern needle files, and a number 2 or higher cut set also. They can put a near mirror finish on ricasso/tang shoulders, and produce the maker's patience worth of perfection for a press fit guard slot.

My vote for most versatile but under-appreciated file: The Crossing File. Count, if you think you like a half round, check a crossing file for the ultimate in curvature refinement. The "shape" pictures of files usually make them appear to have the same radius on both sides, but they're not. They have two different radius.
 
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Grapevine-
Thanks for that rich expose! It's hard to pose more questions after that:thumbup: I'll be looking for a vixen and a long angle lathe file, then. Awesome post!
 
I've been giving the 12" multi-kut from Simonds a workout tonight and boy, does it cut! I love it! I'll be ordering a long angle lathe file from them next. I highly recommend. If I had to estimate, it's cutting around four times faster than my Nicholson 10" bastard double cut half round.
 
The long angle lathe bastards I purchase are smooth on their sides which makes them ideal for cutting shoulders. I like the 14 inch model.

This should be common knowledge; never lay files where they touch each other in a drawer; I clean and wrap each of my big files and lay them in a drawer.

Good information in this thread.
 
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