Regarding the Military 2.0

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The millie's handle is about the same size as the handle on my battle mistress. You end up not even using a whole inch of handle.

The mille's handle is also about an inch larger than my fiddleback bushfinger which has a big, full handle.

Compared to the BM 710, which has a very good handle, the Millie is again much larger while having slightly less cutting edge.

The blade is simply too small for how massive the handle is.

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This is what I call a good selling point.

Put some gloves on and then compare it with other linerlock folders.
 
Superior? Not in all respects, no. There is no one "superior" lock, which is why there are so many types of lock.
the compression lock uses the same number and type of parts, is stronger, will not be disengaged accidentally when gripped, and does not require a finger in the closing path of the blade. Name any aspect where the liner lock is better than the compression lock. The liner lock works, the compression lock works much better. IMO, the para 2 is completely superior to the millie.
 
Name any aspect where the liner lock is better than the compression lock.

I had an original Paramilitary compression lock wear out on me VERY prematurely. The combined effect of lock bar hardness (very low, since it is also a very flexible spring) the smaller surface area over which the bar engaged with the tang, and much higher shear stress on the lock bar all deformed the lock bar jut enough to get noticeable and irreparable blade play. Disassembling the knife and tweaking the spring to engage farther/harder didn't really make things any better either. The sad part was that the blade and handle had lots of life left in them, but here I was left holding the bag because of a weird failure mode. All told, it made me wary of buying another compression lock folder ever again.

For all of these reasons The military's liner lock is, in my opinion, a much more elegant and durable solution that will provide longevity on par with the blade and handle (i.e. repeated use and sharpening will wear out the blade faster than opening and closing will wear out the lock).

Hopefully Spyderco has fixed this issue on newer compression lock models, but I don't want to spend the money to find out when I have much safer alternatives.

-nate
 
Do you for any reason believe the liners of the liner lock knives are a different composition or hardness than the compression lock liners? Do you also have any reason to think the contact area of the compression lock is less than the liner? Have you measured the radiused lock surface on the tang of either design? How did you apply shear stree to the compression lock? How would that stress not have been applied to a liner lock?

I have had liner and frame locks with premature and rapid wear. It had absolutely no correlation to sharpening wear. I have had rapid wear with steel and titanium liners. Individual examples of any lock may have poor fit or material quality issues. How premature was the premature wear? I have had lockup depth change ~30% in a week with liner locks. Others had had no perceptible change over years.
 
The compression lock should be completely safe even with considerable "lock rock" as long as the locking tab has reasonable engagement with the blade tang. It would be annoying, but perfectly safe.
 
Name any aspect where the liner lock is better than the compression lock.

Okay, here's the one that jumps out at me.
When cutting material hard, as in with force, like when shaping wood for spears, skewers, ridge-poles and whatnot, the compression lock has that divot/cut-out to allow for disengaging it. I find that this cut-out digs into my hand.
So, although a compression lock is stronger (duh!), for "hard use" I prefer the liner lock.
Or a frame-lock.
Or even an AXIS.:eek:

For light to medium use, the compression lock feels comfortable in the hand...but then you don't need all the strength.

As Sal has said, "All good, just different."
 
I maintain that they should offer a flat-saber option, for we who see value in the platform but prefer a stronger tip than is afforded by the FFG iterations... SAL? Do you hear? This would help tide me over until you get me my Tuff... :)
 
Lol, even if they would do that, which I doubt, I don't think your going to see it before the Tuff.
 
Do you for any reason believe the liners of the liner lock knives are a different composition or hardness than the compression lock liners? Do you also have any reason to think the contact area of the compression lock is less than the liner? Have you measured the radiused lock surface on the tang of either design? How did you apply shear stree to the compression lock? How would that stress not have been applied to a liner lock?

I have had liner and frame locks with premature and rapid wear. It had absolutely no correlation to sharpening wear. I have had rapid wear with steel and titanium liners. Individual examples of any lock may have poor fit or material quality issues. How premature was the premature wear? I have had lockup depth change ~30% in a week with liner locks. Others had had no perceptible change over years.

Q: Do you for any reason believe the liners of the liner lock knives are a different composition or hardness than the compression lock liners?
A: Hardness of either lock mechanism piece is probably about the same. I don't know, nor do I care. In the case of the liner lock it is irrelevant since the lock face is larger, and force is therefore distributed over a larger area preventing localized deformations that lead to the blade rocking that I saw on a compression lock knife. Even if the liner lock focused all of the lock's restraint onto a single point (think CRK Umnumzaan's ceramic ball), I would still maintain that a point-loaded liner lock would be succeptible to less blade play than the knife with the compression lock.

Q: Do you also have any reason to think the contact area of the compression lock is less than the liner? Have you measured the radiused lock surface on the tang of either design?
A: I've held them up side by side, and can say without a doubt that there is more metal holding the liner lock Military open than any compression locked knife I've owned (PM1 & PM2). I shouldn't have to measure the contact area when there is such an obvious difference.

Q: How did you apply shear stress to the compression lock?
A: As a whole, the bulk of the lock bar/tab is under compressive loading. However, the corner of the inside face of the lock bar undergoes localized shear stress as it engages with the ramped tang and is held in place by the stop pin.

Q: How would that stress not have been applied to a liner lock?
A: There is the same type of shear stress applied to the inside corner of the liner lock bar as it is the first portion of the lock bar to engage with the tang. The bulk stress, though is also compressive in nature.

Q: How premature was the premature wear?
A: I used the knife for fiddly EDC cutting for six months. Never had the need/chance to sharpen it before the blade play got so annoying that I decommissioned the knife.

I am not equating actual sharpening with lock wear. What I am saying is that if the lock shows signs of pooping out before I've had a chance to get some use out of the knife then the overall design needs improvement. Of course different manufacturers' liner locks and frame locks are going to wear in differently. That's not the point I was initially trying to make, however it does illustrate my original opinion, which is to say that a worn-in liner lock will lock up tighter over the life of the knife than a worn-in compression lock. Add to that the fact that liner locks are easier to manufacture, and can be made into very robust mechanisms (e.g. Spyderco Gayle Bradley & PPT, or Emersons, among others), I can see why it is such a popular type of lock mechanism.


-nate
 
For me the biggest problem with the liner lock is this:

If you squeeze the knife hard like you would during a push cut on a piece of wood or if you were stabbing, the liner can become disengaged and fail on you. Ive done this on 4 knives, one of which was a spyderco.

I don't trust liner locks because of this. They are simply too easy to disengage on accident. Almost all of the lock failures I have read about on this forum have been liner locks. I think this says something about the style of lock.

For me there is no advantage to a liner lock. They are slow, non ambidexterous, can be easily disengaged, and require you to put your fingers infront of the blade when closing it.

And if we are so concerned with glove use, a compression lock can be just as easily closed with gloves on. I have used my Para2 quite a bit while gloved and it works fine.

I think we can definitively say that some locks are better than others. The compression lock IS better than the liner lock. It is stronger, faster, and safer (fingers don't go infront of the blade). How is that not better?


For a knife that is called "The Military" and is designed for gloved, tactical use I don't think the liner lock is the best choice. In a "tactical" situation, being able to rapidly open and close your knife is very important. You simply cannot open and close a liner lock as fast as a compression, ball bearning, or axis lock. And don't say its up to the skill of the user. I can open my BM 710/ Manix 2/ Para2 faster than than the most skilled person in the world with a liner locking knife.

I would love to see some innovation in the Millie 2 particularly in the form of a safer, faster, and stronger locking mechanism.

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Edit- I just tried holding my CF m390 Millie in the two standard handle positions (choiled and holding the handle without the choil and thumb on the ramp) and tried to see if I could get the lock to fail just by squeezing the handle as you would durning a hard cut or if you had to slightly twist the blade, like if you make a feather stick and wanted to snap it off the main piece of wood. It Worked Every Time
 
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Hardness of either lock mechanism piece is probably about the same.
So then we agree this is likely of no difference and the compression lock was likely not softer as previously posited.

I've held them up side by side, and can say without a doubt that there is more metal holding the liner lock Military open than any compression locked knife I've owned (PM1 & PM2)

Thank you for checking. The contact are of my Gayle Bradley appears to be about the same as my PM2. I've never had a liner/frame lock knife that would engage along the full height of the tang cut-out, and wear/peening has always been concentrated at one spot on my knives with these locks. I've owned several liner and frame locks from Benchmade, Spyderco, Kershaw, and other brands, but the only Military I owned was for just a couple of days before I put it up for auction due to my dislike of the design. But many people say the Military probably has the best engineered liner lock. That is very different from Strider, who manufactures their frame locks to contact only at the outermost corner, the point furthest from the pivot. Interesting contrast.

There is the same type of shear stress applied to the inside corner of the liner lock bar as it is the first portion of the lock bar to engage with the tang. The bulk stress, though is also compressive in nature.
Appreciate you clarifying that the shear stress is the same for both locks. The compressive force would seem a bit immaterial since Young's modulus for steel is about 29 million psi and the locking of the blade does not exhibit those forces.

I used the knife for fiddly EDC cutting for six months. Never had the need/chance to sharpen it before the blade play got so annoying that I decommissioned the knife.
Do you think this one example shows a flaw in the design or was a lemon from the factory floor?

a worn-in liner lock will lock up tighter over the life of the knife than a worn-in compression lock
I've only owned six compression lock knives, but do not find this to be the case in my personal experience or comments made by most members of the online knife community. but such anecdotes often do not reflect what is factual, so I may be incorrect.

Add to that the fact that liner locks are easier to manufacture, and can be made into very robust mechanisms (e.g. Spyderco Gayle Bradley & PPT, or Emersons, among others), I can see why it is such a popular type of lock mechanism.
I do agree that their simplicity is attractive. I cannot think of a measure in which they are robust. Other than linerless frn lockbacks, I do not think any of the other locks Spyderco uses cannot withstand higher loads than a frame and liner lock can. Sal has mentioned that the bbl, compression, and backlock are very heavy duty rating capable, but Spyderco has been unable to have either the liner or frame lock make their way to this rating in their testing.
 
I'm not sure what kind of things you use your knives for, but my Military does everything I need it to without failing. Then again, I don't stab people every day. :rolleyes:
 
Yup.

[youtube]kpb8y9y9TUk[/youtube]

So don't be an idiot and squeeze the butt of the knife when you're using it? Seriously. It's videos like that that really piss me off.

"Ya see if you take a screw driver and pry the scales apart after heating it to 300 degrees and then smash the blade with a hammer while it's stuck into concrete, the lock will fail and the blade will get dull. This knife is flawed."
 
You don't have to squeeze the butt of the knife for it to fail. You can do it with a completely normal "correct" grip. I think having a lock that disengages when you squeeze the handle can be problematic. If you have a millie, give it a try yourself. The meat on the underside of your knuckle comes incontact with the liner when you hold it. If you squeeze or apply pressure against the lock it will disengage.

Having the lock be in an area where you hold the knife is the downfall. You end up hitting the liner with your hand during normal use. If you are unlucky it might disengage on you and you will have the knife shut on your hand.

This has nothing to do with extreme destructing testing or anything irrational. I can get the lock on my knife to fail by holding the handle how it is supposed to be held. Thats an issue....

Most people, Myself included use Millies for EDC where the toughest task you encounter is slicing an apple. The lock works fine for that but what if you want to carve a piece of wood or partake in an activity where you really have to put some pressure on the handle to make a cut? I do not feel safe using a liner lock for activities like that. And I don't think carving a spoon with a Millie is misuse.
 
So don't be an idiot and squeeze the butt of the knife when you're using it? Seriously. It's videos like that that really piss me off.

"Ya see if you take a screw driver and pry the scales apart after heating it to 300 degrees and then smash the blade with a hammer while it's stuck into concrete, the lock will fail and the blade will get dull. This knife is flawed."

You can also avoid being an idiot if you understand that the point of the video is the lock will accidentally release if the knife is torqued while it is being gripped hard and the blade is stuck in something. You can also avoid being an idiot if you look at the vid closely and you realize that it is not the squeezing that is making the lock, unlock, but rather the torquing. It would be kinda stupid to grip the blade tightly and torque since my knife is hair whittling sharp. Additionally, if you are also not an idiot, you will realize that torquing the handle by trying to turn the whole handle in the hand is a reasonable test of how the knife and the lock will do in a torquing situation.

This demonstration was done while I and some of the people I train with, were testing the suitability of some knives for SD. The large cutout that gives access to the liner lock might be a good design feature for unlocking while wearing gloves but it makes the knife easier to accidentally unlock.

I also have 7 militaries, any of which regularly find their way to my pocket for carry and which I absolutely love as cutting tools but whose limits I know.

Oh, and I don't really care, you can get pissed off all you like. It's not like I'm shaking in my shoes because you got pissed off.
 
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So then we agree this is likely of no difference and the compression lock was likely not softer as previously posited.

Um, no. We don't agree on anything.

Any comparison made between metal properties in different applications/configurations is immaterial to my original argument.

I will summarize again for clarity: The design of the compression lock on the original Spyderco Paramilitary is flawed in that it will develop irreparable blade play over time.

Perhaps Spyderco has improved the design. Not really sure, but I guess 1e5 raving fanboys can't be wrong. Maybe I'll spend some cash and give a new one a try.

********

I will leave it at that and let the rest of the Nutnfancy crew go back to solving the world's problems one hard-use EDC folder at a time.

-nate
 
Sample sizes of one, a near total lack of compressive forces since the spring rate is so weak that it can be disengaged by the thumb, and the fact that cutting transfers force to the stop pin and not the lock bar are all irrelevant to some. Fit issues between the lock bar and stop pin cause lockup issues, and there is certainly no compressive force if there is slop in the lock.
 
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I think we can take this to a higher level. Locks are a fairly new concept in knives. Some have been around for 50 years, some are fairly new. All of them are a work-in-progress and are contantly being refined, evolved and improved. The Walker Linerlock is more than 20 years old and is still being refined. The Compression lock is a new concept and while much has been done to improve it over the past decade, I imagine more will be done. That's one of the reasons for forums, sharing information.

sal
 
With that said, I'll close this down. I got the answer I needed to hear.

Thanks Sal


Hi Rob,

Thanx for the thread. First of all, we can only make just so many kniuves. The Military has been refining and evolving for many years.

We've been discussing some improvemets on the Military. Things like larger screws, larger lanyard hole. When the "2" comes out, it will not replace the "1", just be another variation. 4 way clips cannot be curved. We're planning a 4 way clip, but the curve cannot be retained without making 2 clips which raises the price.

There are many advantages to a well made Walker Linerlock.

The handle size was planned for multiple positions and gloves. We don't have any plans to make it shorter. Blade to handle ratio is more important to appearance than performance. The current handle pattern performs well, especially with large hands. a 4" blade is a good functional size.

sal
 
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