Rehashing "flex"

That's right Mark! Why question nature and why things are the way they are? They just are... I can accept that. I have no problem with it. I just try to surrender to it. What's wrong with that? The answers are already a given.

I just try and go along with the flow of it... :)

Why fight the flow?
 
Why question nature and why things are the way they are? They just are... I can accept that. I have no problem with it.
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Tai, I have no issues with the way things are. I just have an innate sense of curiosity about how things work. It's why when growing up I always destroyed everything I had to see what was inside and to figure out how it worked. It's why I'm a Physical Therapist. I want to know not only what is wrong, but why, and how to fix it if possible.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. There's nothing wrong with living in the moment and allowing things to be as they are without question. And there's nothing wrong with digging deeper to try and understand.


--nathan
 
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If you don’t believe me…

Take a piece of 1/8 inch thick by 1 inch wide by 1 foot long piece of mild steel, and a piece of 1 inch square by one foot long piece of the same mild steel, clamp one end of each in a vice… and see which one is the easiest/hardest to flex… if you need to.
 
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Tai, excuse me, but did you say something about which I needed to believe? Maybe I got lost in your philosophy and missed the answer you intended. If your implication is to just go out and try it, that's not a problem for me. However, it'll have to wait until I can get out in the shop to do so. They like to keep me somewhat busy up here (though I still manage a minute here and there to check the site and occasionally make a knife :D)

If you can't get this stuff with plain old observation and common sense,... you shouldn't be playing with knives in the first place. LOL
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Maybe my question regarding different steels with different stiffnesses was a dunce question. Forgive me, we can't all be as enlightened as you. But that is exactly why I should be playing with knives. To figure this stuff out. That being said, it never hurts to bury your head under some physics for grins if that's what gets your rocks off. :)

--nathan
 
Ah yes. This subject, drug up again. I would just like to go on record as saying:

HAA! HA HA HA HA HAAAAHH!!!

...That is all...
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
While I will always welcome the opportunity to re-open an old thread, particularly one that needs reiterating as much as this topic, I would like to ask if it constitutes some sort of double jeopardy for me to have to put out the same resulting flames I dealt with 9 months ago??;)

The idea that heat treating can in any way affect the stiffness of steel is so strong that it is perhaps at the very top of my list of "Commonly accepted facts that are totally false." We could resurrect old threads continually but it may be better for folks just to go to the library or invest in some simple books on physical properties of metals or basic engineering.
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Maybe it is from terms like "spring temper" that cause these ideas to be perpetuated?
 
Friend, as evidenced by the amazing knives you create, you indeed DO get it.

Maybe we just get it in different ways. :)

--nathan
 
a filet knife that flexes lets you keep the blade flat on the cutting board while being able to keep the handle, and your knuckles, away from the board.Thus being able to slice off the thin skin. I don't think 90 degrees is necessary 30-40 oughta work.
My thoughts
It scares me but i kind of understood a little of that.
Some people bend their knives 90 one way and back, then bend 90 the other way and back. They claim 180 degree bend.
I bent mine 30 degrees back and forth 10 times can I count this as 300 degrees???
Take Care
TJ Smith
 
Tai Goo said:
… just go make some knives and try them out!

What I’m saying is,… Who can’t tell if a blade bent, sprung or snapped? Golly gee, we must all need to go read a few more metallurgical volumes at the library to figure that one out… I mean duh!

If you can't get this stuff with plain old observation and common sense,... you shouldn't be playing with knives in the first place. LOL :D
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Well then there are whole lot of people who shouldn't be playing with knives.

If it is so natural without a need for a metallurgy texts then why the hell do so many makers, from newbies to well known veterans, get it so consistently wrong??
 
Kevin, They aren't all getting it wrong. Some of them are just using different "semantics" and perspectives.

You just seem to be speaking a different language than most...

Some do get it wrong, but only because they are retarded... Reading metallurgy just gets them more confused. :)

Retards shouldn't be making knives. It's too dangerous. If they aren't retarded, (and are normal), they should do just fine.

... does that answer your question? :)
 
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I have to say that this thread has been of enormous benefit to me. The idea that flexibility (as opposed to bendability) is completely independent of heat treat was, to me, COMPLETELY counterintuitive. And I have to say that, to me, it drives home the point that differential hardening is ONLY worthwhile as an aesthetic technique (and it can be a very important aesthetic technique) but it does NOT increase performance. That alone, for me, overcame 15 years of reading that stated how differential hardening was the route to ultimate performance. The scales have fallen from my eyes!
 
You know Kevin,…. There probably are a lot more retards making knives than there ever should be,… I’ll give you that good buddy! But,… they can’t all be retarded, can they? :D

I think the real retards would be better off trying to go find jobs as theoretical physicists, or running for vice president of the U.S.A. :)
 
Well, this thread isn't even 2 years old, so it deserves another post...

It's wonderful to me to find something so utterly counter-intuitive to be true... absolutely wonderful. Thank goodness (or something) for neuro-plasticity.

It shouldn't be as divisive a topic as it is. I think part of the reason this topic is a bit polarizing is that many makers profit from spreading incorrect information. I've done it too, using the differential treatment in the past, and I've also been absolutely certain that my harder blades were stiffer. Now I watch other makers at shows telling customers how superior their blades are because of forging or differential heat treat... that pisses me off a bit, since it devalues my products by perpetuation of falsehoods. It's okay if you devalue my blades, but do it for a good reason!

For some makers it's not an issue (yes Tai, you)... if I were selling out my table at every show I'd view this thread merely as neat but not practical because this knowledge does not change my geometry at all.

BTW Tai I love your work and a lot of your thoughts.
 
Thanks wnease, I guess we all have our own "perspective". :D

"The steel will tell you what to do." Ray Richard
(... if you only listen to it.) :)
 
This is a very informative thread. I have a Question. I have read that fluted gun barrels were stiffer than the same barrel in the round. Apparently this isn't true. The only way a fluted barrel would be stiffer is if it were made from larger diameter stock. I think a fluted barrel of the same diameter would actually be more flexible due to it having less steel resisting the bending force. Is this correct?
Rmfcasey:confused:
 
Rmfcasey said:
This is a very informative thread. I have a Question. I have read that fluted gun barrels were stiffer than the same barrel in the round. Apparently this isn't true. The only way a fluted barrel would be stiffer is if it were made from larger diameter stock. I think a fluted barrel of the same diameter would actually be more flexible due to it having less steel resisting the bending force. Is this correct?
Rmfcasey:confused:
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Yes, that is correct. It may have a higher strength to weight ratio, and less droop - but removing material from a section without adding something somewhere else will not make it stiffer. It will be more flexible.

However, a 1"dia 24" barrel that is fluted and weighs one pound will be stiffer than a 7/8" barrel that is not fluted that also weighs one pound.

From a structural point of view, a tapered fluted barrel might have the best stiffness and strength for a given weight and length.

Basically, the more "stuff" you have , and the farther away from the neutral plane that "stuff" is, the stiffer a structure. A 4X4 is twice as heavy, but four times stiffer than a 2X4 (in one plane)
 
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