Request For Discussion: Buying, Selling & Trading Guidelines

[Brian C]

You make some very good points, Phil. As I indicated upfront, I realize that no set of guidelines will be a panacea. Hopefully, though, they may help in certain situations where there was no malevolence intended at the onset.

Take, for example, the recent case in which 3 knives were shipped in an ordinary envelope. I'm sure the seller did not intend for the contents to become lost; however, had he known going in that he would be responsible for their safe arrival, he might have taken more care in packing them.

As to my case, you're probably right that the guidelines would not have helped. Although, as they are currently written, I would have the right to return "for any reason", MaxPower probably would have done exactly what he did -- claim that the knife was "mint" when it left his possession.

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Cheers,
Brian

He who finishes with the most toys wins.

 

[TomW]

A clearly written set if guidelines is a good idea even though the botton line is still that a deal is only as good as the character of the people making it.

 

[RJ]

The guidelines sound good to me. However as stated before, by someone else, the people who are looking for a way to regulate/rate transactions are the ones who are honest and forthright. The problem lies with dealing with people for the first time or people who you have never heard of before. I have made several deals with many people, but not everyone by far. There are names that you know because they post all of the time or you hear about other people dealing with them. These aren't the people that I worry about. The people that I worry about are the ones who have only posted a few times(not that everyone who has only posted a few times is a bad person). It is more that these people are unknown and have less to loose.

Hope this makes sense.

Rich

 

[Jackal]

Brian, just in case you were implying, your name is on the list, and has been for some time now.

The list is there to provide a list of people who have known good reputations as buyers, sellers, and traders here at BladeFourms. To tell you the truth, I prefer to deal with people, not on the list, just so I can add them for the first time.

Theirs nothing wrong with dealing with people not on the list, all those people started somewhere ya know.

Just in case someone feels weary about making the deal, or wants to withhold the knife until money is received, the list is there to ease minds, and speed up the transaction...I know as well as anyone how hard it is to wait for the goods.

-AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322

 

[Mike Turber]

Based on the number of emails that Spark and I get, it may be time to take more drastic measures to ensure that the Knife Exchange area is a secure place to conduct business. Spark and I are tired of policing it and watching pseudo individuals (dealers?) come out of the woodworks with all types of items to sell and a seamingly endless supply of products.

We are looking at several solutions and we may implement them very soon.

Keep in mind that we have the utmost concern for the well being of our members. And as such any changes we do make will be in the best interest of all parties concerned including dealers, members, custom makers and others.

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Mike Turber
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[maddog2020]

Brian,

The guidelines you wrote up look good to me.

I have a couple of suggestions: we need a guideline for CORRECT packaging of items, and perhaps sending tracking numbers, or confirmation numbers as well.

Generally I rather OVER pack and items from damage as opposed to NOT use enough packaging. Foam peanuts/potato chips/cheese curls, or whatever you want to call them are one of the best fillers available. Worse case crumpled newpapers works, too.

If its a collectable knife and the box is mint - it stinks to have the box get all squished, or scratched up because there was no packing material.

USPS gives FREE boxes when you use Priority Mail! In fact, Brian told me that you can order FREE supplies (boxes, labels, tape....) on line from the USPS.

The couple of minutes it takes to send an e-mail with a tracking number, OR confirmation number is a nice touch.

That way both the buyer and seller can see when it was shipped and received.



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Ray 'md2020'

ATKI member #A001042

 

[Cougar Allen]

I think it's best if the guidelines are developed by the members rather than by me as moderator ... nobody will be able to say anything like "these so-called 'guidelines' are nothing more than your personal opinions, Cougar, so fork you" -- they'll be the clear consensus of the membership as a whole. That's why I'm being so uncharacteristically quiet.

Just one general suggestion, though -- we might want to make a distinction between ethics and etiquette, put them in separate sections. Just a thought....

We can post it on TGBU and I'm willing to keep kicking it back to the top often enough so it stays on the first page, same way Bill Martino does with his safety tips on the Himalayan Imports Forum.

-Cougar :{)

 

[edrozen]

Hey, Guys!!!.
I think I've got a great idea

How about having a forum that caters only to proven seller and possibly buyer? Access would only be possible with a pass word. Kind of like the moderator's forum.

And Jackyl, I've done a number of trades, and I'd like to get on your list. How do I do so?, Thanks.

 

[GeneL74]

Hello Folks,

Well, this may sound kind of crazy, but there is a site that I visit frequently, and it is solely firearms for sale.... They have this option, It will cost you a little $$$$$, but basically how it works is: Both the buyer and the seller send the money and the gun to the folks that operate the site.... When both have arrived, they then pass the gun/money on to the other... Now I know that there are a lot of cases where this system would not be needed, but when that new guy with 2 posts has a really nice knife and wants $400.00 for it, it may be just the thing.....

I also know that Mike and Spark probably wouldn't have the time to do this, but maybe another very trusting sole would offer to do it.... You could charge, well maybe $5.00 from both buyer and seller.... Who knows??? It might just work!!!

I am a small dealer (don't sale here.... don't sale enough to advertise), but I would be interested in helping out..... Especially if it meant my friends not getting burnt!!!!!

What do you guys think????

Gene

O.K. I have screwed up a little here..... When both the gun and the money arrive to the folks who run the gun site that I was speaking of earlier, they send the gun to the buyer for a 3 day inspection period..... As soon as they receive word that all is well, they send the money to the seller.... Sorry about the mess-up!!!

[This message has been edited by GeneL74 (edited 05-04-2000).]

 

[Freemon]

I do like this thread. As a more than casual user of bf I have bought knives thru the individual exchange. Though I'm a user rather than collector I do want to get the best deal available and as such I tend to shop 'careful'. Though I've never sold blades on bf I've bought a decent amount over this last year and still not on 'the list'. I don't consider this a mark against me..though of course I'd like to be noted as one of the good guys...which I KNOW I am. That being said I like the idea of an exchange 'user agreement'. It would kinda set the tone of how we all expect biz to be conducted...unless otherwise specified. Though I've never been burnt on bf I am constantly aware of the possibility when dealing with an unknown (to me) party. So far ALL my dealings with bf members has been nothing but great...but I'm still cognizant that for a variety of reasons deals can go bad...we should do all reasonably possible to prevent such occurrances as well as have some guidelines for remedy. Lastly I DO NOT like the idea of returning item for ANY REASON. Its already been brought up but there there should be reasonable cause for return...having to do with the item itself being deficient from its norm...not the buyers perception, frame of mind or change of heart. If the latter is the case it should be up to the seller to accept return.

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Only perfect practice makes perfect

 

[Brian C]

I understand what you are saying, RJ, but just being around for a while & having a certain number of posts doesn't guarantee that the deal will go smoothly either. The guy who just burned me was a member for almost a year & had > 100 posts.

Jackyl, I know I've been on the "Great Guys..." list for a while.

Sorry if I came across otherwise.

Mike, I've observed the "pseudo dealers" thing you've mentioned myself. I'll be interested to see what solutions you guys come up with.

Ray, I think your suggestion for some packing & shipping tips is a good idea. I agree with Cougar, though, about keeping things like etiquette & shipping tips in a separate section. IMO, the guidelines are better being kept as simple as possible without a collection of "how to's" scattered through them. I have some real work due today

, but I'll draft some packing & shipping tips when I get a chance. For purposes of discussion, I'll probably just add them to the Misc section. Afterwards, we can spin off that entire section into a separate document.

Cougar, please don't keep quiet on the content of the guidelines. We need all the input we can get. I don't want these to become known as Brian's guidelines either. I'm simply trying to codify thoughts that members have contributed in the past throughout a variety of threads. Using what is generally known as a "one draft" approach, I plan on making changes & additions to the document as we seem to reach consensus on certain points. Each time that is done and a new document is posted, I'll be essentially asking "what's wrong with this?" until we wind up with a document to which most folks would agree.

Gene, IMO, the idea of an escrow service could work well for high value deals but would add more complication & cost than is really needed for most transactions. I haven't used any myself, but I know that there are commercial escrow services providing the type of service you describe.

OK, Freemon has cast another vote against returns for ANY reason. I can see both sides of this issue myself but, as I said earlier, I'm concerned that limiting a buyer's right to return could lead to situations where one person describes a knife as "some handling marks" and another views it as "scratched to hell". Let's continue to discuss this point. Remember, the Guidelines are intended to be just that, "guidelines", not hard & fast rules. Sellers could always specify "no returns" for, say, NIB items if we leave things as they are OR "right to inspect/return" if we put in limitations on returns.

Thanks again to everyone for your contributions. Please keep them coming.

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Cheers,
Brian

He who finishes with the most toys wins.

 

[Ryan Meyering]

I'll cast another vote against the buyer having the right to a refund for any reason. If a seller wishes to offer that option, fine, it's a good selling point. I have offered return for any reason on my transactions, and have had the good fortune to never have anything returned. But to say it's the buyer's right is too much.

IMO, a contract is formed between the buyer and seller when the buyer offers to pay the seller's price (or makes an offer) and the seller responds with an acceptance. As soon as the buyer receives the seller's acceptance, neither the buyer nor the seller should be able to back out of the deal. This benefits honest buyers and sellers, because it guarantees that the seller won't cancel the deal if they get a better offer, and it guarantees that the buyer won't just change his mind and possibly cost the seller a sale with someone else. (The latter has happened to me.)

Once the buyer and seller have reached an agreement, both should be obligated to carry out their end of the deal, and the buyer should not have the right to return the item unless (a) it was misrepresented; (b) the item was sold in used condition, and the buyer isn't satisfied with the condition; or (c) there is no picture available on the internet, and the buyer isn't satisfied with the knife

I think the buyer has the right to return in case (b) because it's sometimes difficult to accurately describe a used knife's condition, and in case (c) because it's difficult to know exactly what you're getting without a picture. But to say the buyer has the right to return a NIB Benchmade AFCK just because it's bigger than he expected it to be is too much... I think the buyer should be responsible for a little research.

If the buyer just doesn't like the knife, it doesn't feel good in his hand, or whatever, he can always resell it on the forums. I've bought a couple of knives on the for sale forum that looked better in the picture than they did in my hand, but were NIB as advertised, so I felt that the seller had fulfilled his obligation. I turned around and sold both of these knives and lost nothing but the shipping charge.

Ryan

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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23

 

[Jackal]

edrozen, I had assumed you were already on it. I will add you right away, as I know you to be a good guy. To get on the list, a reputable member needs only to reply to the list with a reccommendation that another member be added, and I'll do it. The list is getting large, and I watch to make sure their are no bad guys there... (so far, so good) I only hope it is a semi-valuable contribution to the forum, and it's members.

-AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322

 

[Champion]

Brian,

Looks great!

One minor but quite possibly significant change (IMHO): Under "Responsibilities" and "Sellers are Responsible for", the first bullet: "... If the item is used, however, a more detailed description is probably appropriate."

Take out the word "probably" and exchange it with "definitely". Minute and insignificant? Perhaps, ... then again, perhaps not.

Glad this idea took off!

Champion


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Champions make improvements as fast as losers make excuses.

 

[the4th]

Please ad the following:

"If you smoke like a Yugo with 172,000 miles on the engine and your knives and boxes smell like the Marlboro Man has been riding Joe Camel across Nicotine Flats please put that in your post."

I have worked a few trades lately and the first thing I had to do after handling the knives was wash and then go get a cancer screening. It's just icky!

 

[Brian C]

Based on feedback so far, I've made a few changes to the draft guidelines.

• I think Ryan nailed the contract formation piece exactly so I included some language mentioning contract formation. (I didn't feel it was worthy of a GBU post, but I was also affected by a buyer changing his mind after we reached a deal.)
• There seems to be consensus about changing the buyer's "right to return for any reason" so I've modified that statement.
• There has been no more discussion on the issue of shipping charges but I feel Nick's idea was a good one so I made that change as well.

Please take a look and let me know if you feel you can live with the way it is now worded. Remember, as you do, that sellers can always set their own policies in their ads. In fact, as someone had said, a more liberal policy such as "return for any reason" or "2-day inspection" could be a good selling point.

I still think Ray's idea for some packing & shipping tips is a good one but I just haven't gotten around to doing anything about it yet. If anyone else would like to give it a shot, please be my guest.

Joel, thanks for the laugh... I think.

As a smoker, I may have to consider including a small air freshener in my packages.

Thanks again for everyone's input. Please keep it coming.

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Cheers,
Brian

He who finishes with the most toys wins.

 

[Dannyc]

Hi Brian!

Man, ICQ is screwed up BIG time... just got your message just now (your message was written days ago, it seem)

Anyway, looked over the draft twice, and so far, so good...

We all have to understand, that these are only guidelines, after all. I always live by the golden rule, and know that it will work for just about anybody who WANTS it to work for them.

Do unto others...

I smoke too... but I wash my hands before handlng knives.

Dan

 

[Cougar Allen]

The buyer's right to return anything he buys through the mail once he sees it is an absolute, legally. No excuses. That's US law, anyway, and I think the same applies just about anywhere ... maybe there's some third world country that doesn't have any consumer protection laws at all....

If you look through TGBU you'll find no excuses have been accepted by the membership here, either. The knife is new in box as described, they're all like that (blade play or whatever it is the buyer finds he doesn't like about it once he sees it) -- leave aside the cases when the seller has claimed the knife was NIB when he shipped it and claimed it's not defective because they're all like that and nobody has believed his claims -- even if it's perfectly true and nobody doubts it the membership doesn't seem any more inclined to accept those excuses than the law is.

If we write a set of guidelines that says a seller can refuse a refund under some circumstances ... well, he's still going to lose in court if the buyer chooses to go that route, and he's still going to find his name will be Mud on the forums....

-Cougar :{)

 

[Brian C]

Cougar just made what I feel is a very compelling argument. So... I modified the document accordingly. The return statement is now more or less back in its original form. I left out the phrase "for any reason", that was in the first draft; however, I also removed any limitations as well.

As before, please share your questions, comments & concerns.

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Cheers,
Brian

He who finishes with the most toys wins.

 

[Brian C]

Any questions, comments, or concerns about the guidelines as currently drafted? Keeping in mind that sellers can always set their own policies in their ads, do we have a set of basic principles that we can live with?

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Cheers,
Brian

He who finishes with the most toys wins.