Respect for this forum.

F

Frank Niro

Joined
Sep 10, 2000
Messages
4,786
I see a situation expanding where some seem to use this forum for a "dump". Why is it that so many ridiculous out of place questions that have no right to be here are presented? This is not a training site. It is a learning site. To me the difference is that if you were to collect information on making, then this would be concidered a training site; if you ask questions on that information you have proceeded or are proceeding to use, that would mean you have some back ground and are looking to learn. People jump in with a "well I'm here , now tell me everything so I can make that multi dollar knife." What would you do without the forums if you had the urge to make? I believe you would search out information in librarys and magazines and the find someone who just might give you answers to your learning problems. But you just come to the forum and seem to figure it's all here from beginning to end and I just have to ask and keep asking. And why after you do ask and someone is kind enough to try to help even though the "stickies" are not some place for you to start you reply in a manner that is to say that answer doesn't please you, or you haven't even started a knife yet but figure you should jump in with an opinion? There are lots of very knowledgeable people involved in these forums. Give them a chance and they will have the correct reply in what is usually a most simple to understand manner. This is a place for fun and entertainment but after the serious part of achieving with the help of others, takes place. Being new to knife making does make you a dummy but it does not place you in a position to be able to give good answers. It does not mean you cannot ask but asking questions that you do not have the back ground for is an interference. Then why are the answers given? It's only because these people are thankful for having been helped in the past and want to help others.
If you have read all the stickies and were able to get started what was missing? Did you try the Search? Are you moving along on making that knife? Hey, now that question is probably a good one and many will be pleased to see the answer. Frank
 
Screw the questions when did this become a rant and raves forum?? I don't see a problem with anyone asking questions if you are tired of reading them don't open the damn post. In other words, get bent.
P.S.
Happy holidays
Sterling
 
Sterlinghaney25 said:
Screw the questions when did this become a rant and raves forum?? I don't see a problem with anyone asking questions if you are tired of reading them don't open the damn post. In other words, get bent.
P.S.
Happy holidays
Sterling
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With all respect, Sterling.....Frank has been around a LONG time, quite a bit longer than the few months you've spent on the forum. While I'm not jumping on his bandwagon just yet without talking to him more about where he's coming from.....your post is a bit out of line. I'd suggest giving yourself a little more time getting familiar with the dynamic here before taking such a harsh stance on his feelings on the subject. A lot has gone on here in the last couple years that you are probably not familiar with.

You are right, this forum is about asking, learning, sharing, discussing......but that doesn't mean that you know everything about what goes on here yet. Frank's got a lot of experience here and you could easily message or email him about what he's talking about rather than start bashing him here in the open. It's not necessary or helpful.
 
Frank,
I think I understand where you are coming from with this and can't answer for most, but for myself:
I read the stickies - some of them more than once.
I use search & advanced search.
I try to practice "read more, post less".
When I see a discussion or a question I feel competent to weigh in on, I do -- but often that's based on life experience earned outside the forums.
yes, I have completed a couple of knives and they're not pretty, so I may have a better than neophyte understanding of what kind of work goes into some of the gorgeous work posted up.
At this point, what I'm missing is a place to practice between now and warmer weather. (at least until I can find time to finish enclosing the shop building and run power out to it)

If I've missed your point, let me know -- making mistakes seems to be the one skill I've truly mastered so far. :)
 
Well sterling this is just the thing I am writing about. I didn't call anyone down, but I think some concideration of those around us is necessary. Why are you so upset? If what I wrote is wrongly stated according to your politics why are you jumping on me in a manner you say should not be done and then making it personal as well. I didn't write this to offend you or anyone. I wrote it for just the reason I said which is concider the question before asking.
I appologize for setting you off and do so to others that may get upset as well. Frank
 
Just a thought. I always try to make it my practice to look and look and look before asking questions. for example, recently, I was looking around for a drill press and went through about 20 old threads looking for an answer. when I didn't find and answer that fit my situation, I came with a new post in which I knew about what I wanted and what it was going to have to do, but just needed some information of experiences. I got my answers and am going to put them to use when I have enough money. I try not to post a whole lot of new posts, and I generally only chime in when I have a relevant answer. this is something that I thing could be a good thing for the forum if it happened a little more often. however, I would rather the people were making knives than looking for information. this is an art that will die if it doesn't get helped along a bit.
 
I have more respect for this forum and the people in it than anyone could conceive. Without the knowledgeable people that have taken the time to give me the pointers and guidance I would not be at the point that I am now. In some way everyone here has influenced and taught me something, be it direct or indirect.

I would like to take this time to say thank you to everyone.
 
I began making long before the internet was up and running. I made a few found some books made a few more. Well I should say knife shaped objects. Discovered they actually had magazines and subscribed to all of them. I had been making knives for 15 years before I even met another knifemaker. Once I learned to forge and Met Tai Goo I started my clock over again. That was almost 20 years ago (that makes 35 years total). I did not find this forum until about 2006 and it has been a great place to hang out. I have been spending less and less time here though because of what Frank has pointed out. The same question over and over then many times an argument ensues because the OP does not like the response. Sterling I do not open many questions just for this reason. I try to help out when I can and do not stick my nose into it when it gets heated. There have been many who have left this forum or greatly reduced their presence because of being disrespected. Now no one on this or any other forum is a deity. We can all be replaced, but this place has become a shell of what it used to be, at least for me.
 
My experience of this forum is that it can be a very friendly place for newbies with the right attitude... and a pretty cold place for those with the wrong attitude.

We've seen some of both lately, to be sure.

I won't name names (I doubt it would be necessary), but there have been a few folks who show up with what obviously turn out to be rhetorical questions. They ask a question and then proceed to tell everyone that answers the question they are wrong. By golly their file knives are just as good as your top line steel knifes... their used motor oil is every bit as good as your Parks, and so on. If they are such experts at the outset, why ask questions? It's obvious they just want to start a dust-up. And to me, that's the ultimate in disrespectful behavior.

I'm not trying to suggest anyone here is owed fealty by the newbies, or that all newbies are idiots. We all start at different places, and that's just fine. We don't all have to be alike. But a little respect goes a long way. Acknowledging that there is always someone that knows more that you is the first sign of wisdom. The second sign is showing respect for others, on the off chance that they know something you don't and might deign to share it with you.

- Greg
 
Frank, I get where you're coming from, and I agree.
Unfortunately it's a reflection of society - folks feel self important and entitled. It's an open forum and I don't forsee it changing.

Best
Steve
 
As a long time poster of another forum, I understand where Frank is coming from. After over 10 years on one forum, I thought I had either read or done it all. Other posters, especially the new ones, used to annoy me because they were enthusiastic and asked the same questions I myself had answered a million times before. Some people want to use forums as encyclopedias and other people only learn my interacting and exchanging information with others. Essentially, my annoyance with some the posters was my problem and not theirs. In a way it's a form of forum burnout. Realistically, I can't expect other posters to change (they never have), nor is it reasonable to expect everyone to be respectfull of my issues no matter how long I was on a forum so it boils down to accepting things as they are or taking a vacation from the forum. Posting online rants in the forum about things you can't change just leeds to resentment from others like Sterling....I know, I've been there.
 
This place has surely changed a lot from when I first joined up, and it's a large reason why myself and many others don't post as regularly. Replies like those seen recently (i.e. Sterling's response) are case in point. I think a small part of the change can be attributed to generational differences. Most of the more experienced makers are old enough to have been raised before the advent of the internet and message boards. You know, when people spoke face to face or on the phone and had to use intelligible conversation with another human being to be understood. The "tough guy" anonymity of the internet didn't exist then, and you tended to speak with mutual respect unless you were prepared to elevate hostilities for whatever reason which could very well result in physical confrontation. Now, we speak across continents via the internet, having never met face-to-face the people with whom we converse. Most of us who grew up before the net still tend to use the same type of communication style and mutual respect we did before the growth of internet technology. However, younger makers (which make up a large chunk of those who are just now taking up knife-making) have grown up in the digital world of anonymity with fewer concrete consequences for their words. As such, they tend to be much more willing to speak disrespectfully. However, I don't want to place the blame entirely on younger people. As I said, those of us who grew up before or on the fringe of the digital revolution tend to speak in the same manner here as we did before. Thus, if you were an a$$hat before, you're very likely to continue to be on a message board. The difference is that you could choose not to be around said a$$hat in times past, where it's hard to avoid them in the forums (without utilizing the ignore feature).

Another generational difference is that younger people tend to have an instant gratification personality due to the speed of travel, food, communication, and information that they've grown up with. I've seen this in my students who want the information spoon fed to them or dumbed down so that they don't have to work as hard to learn the material. They get mad at their professors if they do poorly on a test rather than learning a lesson and changing their study habits. The same can be seen on the forums. Many of us stayed quiet and learned what we could on our own by researching and reading or learning from other makers, asking questions as we went. Now, the information is so readily available that few put forth the independent study needed to answer the most basic of questions. This leads to an inundation of repeated questions that frustrate some of the longer-term members.

Those are a few observations, but I also think that the whole world of internet forums and blogging has also given a voice to those who would otherwise be ignored outright because of the content of their ramblings.

**edited to add: I don't want to come across as down on the younger makers. They are the future of our craft, and there are tons of respectful, hard working young makers out there who show amazing promise. This topic seems to come up here once every year or two, and there are definitely ebbs and flows of the content and the feel of the board. I've been around other places like Salem said below, and Shop Talk is still a great place to learn.

--nathan
 
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Looking at the atmosphere in a couple of the other knife related forums around is enough to give me a warm and cozy feeling back here at Bladeforums. It's far from dead here in ST, I still learn things here, and I appreciate the general tone here.

I know what you're talking about Frank, not contradicting, just trying to put in another perspective. Hang in there, we'd hate to see less of you.

Sterling, ease up, huh?
 
Nathan, that was a great post. Lots of forumites, young and old could take something away from it. Very well said.:thumbup:

Salem, you also hit the nail on the head. Lots of good stuff here for those who want to share, learn, and enjoy the craft!
 
This is a great forum. Not every thread, but the body as a whole is the best in my opinion. I've been around a year and acquired 10 years' experience or more by reading, posting asking.

Find the good, ignore the rest. The good far outweighs anything else.
 
I don't understand how someone whom has been a member here for 7 months with a grand total of 88 posts could say something like that to such a helpful and knowledgable maker. Mr. Niro, I and many others here respect your opinion, knowledge, and your willingness to share and help others. Please don't let comments like that keeping you from continuing to share and help.
 
darrin sanders said:
I don't understand how someone whom has been a member here for 7 months with a grand total of 88 posts could say something like that to such a helpful and knowledgable maker.
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An unfortunately common phenomenon, not only on the internet: the less they know, the louder they know it.
 
Sterlinghaney25 said:
Screw the questions when did this become a rant and raves forum?? I don't see a problem with anyone asking questions if you are tired of reading them don't open the damn post. In other words, get bent.
P.S.
Happy holidays
Sterling
Click to expand...


You're going to say that to Frank Niro? That irritates me to no end.

:thumbdn:

Would someone please ban the nitwit.
 
A forum is many things to many people, but of the one thing I've found constant is the cyclical nature of them. You will always have new noobs signing up posting questions that could easily be answered by stickies. I don't think that's a sign of disrespect rather one of overexhuberance.
 
What bugs me is when you get a noob who has made less than 20 blades from raw steel to finished knife, latches onto a couple ideas and suddenly becomes the troll who has to argue about everything, starts pointless rhetorical threads, near as I can tell merely to see their name in phosphors and get their postcounts up, and develops an attitude like they own the darn place.

-Page

P.S. I agree with Nathan
Nathan the Machinist said:
You're going to say that to Frank Niro? That irritates me to no end.

:thumbdn:

Would someone please ban the nitwit.
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