Resurrecting O1 heat treat?

Chiro75

Chiro75

Joined
Feb 4, 1999
Messages
5,786
So, I can't get my O1 hard. Seriously, honey, this NEVER happens to me! I think my new goop recipe requires a lot more heat than I'm used to prep it for quenching. So far I have done the following to the knife and I want to know if it's damaging the knife or making it better possibly and if I can do this to correct the mistakes or not:
1) Heat to critical
2) Quench
3) 400°F for 2 hours to temper.
4) Etched
5) Discovered limpness in my steel
6) Heated to just below critical, then air cooled to black 3-4 times
7) Heated to critical
8) Quenched
9) Tested with file, still soft
10) Heated to critical 3 times and air cooled to black
11) Heated to critical, quenched, tempered at 405° for 2 hours, discovered still soft.

Sooooooo, can I heat to critical/air cool a few times to "normalize" (remember, caveman technique here!) this sucker and try one more time, or am I barking up the wrong tree? If I can resurrect this one I'm going to double charge for it's "special thermal cycling heat treat!" Kidding. It's sold if I can make it right. If not I'll destry this mother!
 
DOnt laugh at me Chiro.....
Turn the lights out.....
Normalise the 0-1 again.
Heat untill almost tangarine color.
Quench
Wait about 3 to 5 min.
Heat untill almost tangarine color
Quench

Remember - I said ALMOST tangarine color........... very close to burning color but just above non magnetic color. If you dont get that sucker out of the heat fast when that color starts to turn tangarine(almost!!) you will have lizard skin in the etch which is grain growth.

Temper as usual if not 415 degrees.
I bet this will work.
 
Well, this time I redid a 1095 knife I didn't get hard on the same day I changed my quench recipe and it went great. So, I normalized the O1 again (non magnetic + a count to ten), then air cool, and repeated a couple times. Then brought to non-magnetic and quenched. File bit right in. Bashed edge of knife with file until file broke, which I don't think helped the knife much, but it made me happier. Then I beat the knife with a hammer for a bit and that also was beneficial to me. All I can think of is that because I am using 3/16" stock it just isn't cooling fast enough. I'm about to mix a brine up and quench this bastard in water and see what it thinks of that! I'm going to pick up some ATF on the way home and see if that makes a difference. If it doesn't I'm going to go ape$hit on this thing, quite honestly. In the amount of time I've screwed with this O1 I could've made 3 of the same knife in 1095. If I can't get this thing to go in ATF then I'm going to try with 1/8" O1 next and see what happens. Then grind a fresh knife from 3/16" and try it again, properly from the get-go. Knowing my luck toolanddie mismarked the steel and I have A2 or something.
 
Concidering how many times you've redone the HT, it's possible you have a decient layer of decarb that the file can bite coating some perfectly hard non decarbed steel. Try grinding it a little and trying the same thing again. One thing I do with O1 is after I check critical with a magnet I put it back in the fire to equalize the temp/color on the edge and soak it for a few seconds to make sure most/all of the carbon is in solution rather then bunched into carbides that rob the rest of the steel of carbon content. In theory the normalizations should do this for you, but stuff happens.
 
AwP, I did in fact grind it down a bit after this latest round of shenanigans, so the decarb layer theory is a bust. After I get to critical, I stick the knife back in the forge and give it a "one one thousand, two one thousand..." count up to 5-10 depending on how it "feels" to me. Dang this is frustrating! I'm going to give ATF a shot, then I'm going to just try it with the other O1 I have. Like I said, knowing my luck this isn't even O1! :grumpy: This may be the first round of destructive testing I'll ever do on a knife. Either that or I'm going to sick the bastard to the bottom of Lake Michigan next time I'm on my kayak. That'll show it who's boss! Sleep with the fishes, you SOB! :D
 
either
1 your are not just over critical during the dunk.
you need to keep the temper just over for a good 5 min's less will do but you to watch the steel closly
2 your oil is too hot or heats to fast from the dunk.
3 you don't have O1
if you are edge quenching
by using 3/16" the hot part not quenched may be tempering what you just hardened. combinding the oil is getting hot hot at the edge.

1 hour is all you need for the temper it's not SS,
you can do it twice but let it cool
to at least 200 deg's first to do any good on the 2nd round.

why all the normalizing? :confused:
 
I went round and round with 1075 a while back. It cost me 10 days in heat treat experiments to finally get it were I wanted. That was 10 days added to delivery date. Finally, the fix was to increase the quenching oil temperature.

RL
 
rlinger said:
I went round and round with 1075 a while back. It cost me 10 days in heat treat experiments to finally get it were I wanted. That was 10 days added to delivery date. Finally, the fix was to increase the quenching oil temperature.

RL
Click to expand...
good point
but I'd think the 10xx's are prone to this.
O1 I don't have that problem. you can take a bit longer getting it in the quench than the 10xx's IMO and I keep my oil at about 125F
 
and it depends alot on the particular oil used. I believe I like quenching O1 in Brownells Tough-Quench at about 95 - 100 F. 130 F or a little higher for 1075. That is what is working for me here.

RL
 
Chiro,
It's starting to sound like Dan's #3 to me. O-1 gets hard pretty well with every quench I've ever tried, (Water's pretty stressful though and usually turns out cracks).
Don't think the thickness is an issue here, I've quenched 1/4" and gotten full hard no problem.
Either it's not O-1 or you're leaving something out in your description that's critical to the analysis.
 
I've been using olive oil and a new file won't touch it..
I have some Texaco A coming :D can't wait to try that out now..

some time ago I made a big big blade and quenched it in the same vessel (full quench)
as the others and IT was soft coming out
it went in fast but it heated the oil way out of site fast.. I needed more volume in that case..
 
I think some of you are missing part of Chiro's info.HE IS ONLY SOAKING IT FIVE or TEN SECONDS. With 3/16 steel,and too cool oil,he may not be getting a hardening mix in the alloy.I would snap the piece and test the cross section for hardness and look at the grain.If it is still not hard in the center,you have a problem to track down.My list would be:
1) Is it truly at critical ,and did it soak long enough?
2)Are you sure it is O-1?
3) Are you sure there is not good steel under a thick layer of decarb?
4) Is the quench right for the steel - speed,temperature,quantity?
Good luck Steve - Stacy
 
It's been my experience, that O1 gets really hard really easily. I don't think he's got O1.
 
Dan Gray said:
either
1 your are not just over critical during the dunk.
you need to keep the temper just over for
a good 5 (min's( not sec's ) {a little}{a little} less will do
Click to expand...

dang steve Stacy's right,, read the above again...you need to get the first parts done right first then fix any wrongs.. :(
 
y using 3/16" the hot part not quenched may be tempering what you just hardened.
Click to expand...
I wondered about this. The knife is a Tactical Orange Peeler, so it's only 4" long OVERALL. That means pretty much the whole thing is getting really hot, and a few seconda after quenching the edge, the choil area is still red hot. I switched to ATF last night and my file didn't bite as much, but I let it cool, then etched without tempering and still didn't have crap. Tested with the file again and I think it was still softer. So, I think this is what's happening. I am going to clay coat the whole handle and try once more on this bugger. Then I'm going to dunk the whole mess in ATF and let it soak for a while and see what happens. I think I'm on the right path, and I'm glad you mentioned this theory, Dan, because I was thinking the exact same thing (which means we're likely both wrong! :D )
 
Chiro75 said:
I wondered about this. The knife is a Tactical Orange Peeler, so it's only 4" long OVERALL. That means pretty much the whole thing is getting really hot, and a few seconda after quenching the edge, the choil area is still red hot. I switched to ATF last night and my file didn't bite as much, but I let it cool, then etched without tempering and still didn't have crap. Tested with the file again and I think it was still softer. So, I think this is what's happening. I am going to clay coat the whole handle and try once more on this bugger. :D )
Click to expand...

me :confused: .. I'm never wrong :footinmou :D
dang 4" at 3/16 stock :eek: :)
Steve
are you keeping the edge in the quench until cool and not letting the oil over heat/
from the residual heat from the rest of the blade, you mention the choil
still red hot. if you take it out to soon the rest of the hot blade heat will migrate to the edge and temper it..if to hot it will temper it at to high a heat..
this will wipe out any hamon anyway.

leaving it in the heat for the right time
means pretty much the whole thing is really hot and should be unless you are using O/A

it will be hot you need to keep in for about 5 min at the right temp.
after you reach the right heat.

Clay coating traps heat so when you quench it the clay keeps that part from quenching.
I think either
you're not letting it quench long enough or not heating it up to temp for the right amount of time or both ..
or you don't have O1
O1 is a very good steel to learn on ..if your other HC steel is working for you in the mix your using
and you changed the mix and now you have problems look at the mix....
if not the mix,,, you're not doing it the same as the 10xx steel...and you should be doing the same for all tent purposes
other that the heat for tempering..
 
dang 4" at 3/16 stock
Click to expand...
Blade is 2". Actually by the time I finish grinding, usually a couple 16th's under 2"! I wanted to make a Fatty Edition of my TOP as sort of a special edition. At this pace if I charge $1,000 each I should break even! :D The normal ones are 1/8", which is more appropriate for a knife this size, but with a high flat grind 3/16" should do okay.

are you keeping the edge in the quench until cool
Click to expand...
No, and this is why I think we're right. In fact, my file seemed to bite more after it fully cooled than when I first quenched it, so I think this is exactly what is happening!

I used ATF on my Razel (permission granted from Jon Graham!) prototype yesterday and it was HARD as hard gets. That was also a larger knife, 1/8" steel, deep hollow grinds and 1095. Dan, I think we have this thing figured out. I am heading home right now before my afternoon patients roll in and I'm going to soak the O1 for closer to 5 minutes (I thought that was bad) around critical, then I'm going to dump it in a big thing of ATF and then we'll see who's boss! :D
 
Hmmm, at this point I'd really be wondering if the steel was actually O1. Are there some scraps from the same stock you cut the blade out of? If so why not try heating one of them well over critical and quenching it to see if it hardens.
 
Dan Gray said:
me :confused: .. I'm never wrong :footinmou :D
dang 4" at 3/16 stock :eek: :)
Steve
are you keeping the edge in the quench until cool and not letting the oil over heat/
from the residual heat from the rest of the blade, you mention the choil
still red hot. if you take it out to soon the rest of the hot blade heat will migrate to the edge and temper it..if to hot it will temper it at to high a heat..
this will wipe out any hamon anyway.

leaving it in the heat for the right time
means pretty much the whole thing is really hot and should be unless you are using O/A

it will be hot you need to keep in for about 5 min at the right temp.
after you reach the right heat.

Clay coating traps heat so when you quench it the clay keeps that part from quenching.
I think either
you're not letting it quench long enough or not heating it up to temp for the right amount of time or both ..
or you don't have O1
O1 is a very good steel to learn on ..if your other HC steel is working for you in the mix your using
and you changed the mix and now you have problems look at the mix....
if not the mix,,, you're not doing it the same as the 10xx steel...and you should be doing the same for all tent purposes
other that the heat for tempering..
Click to expand...

I changed my wording a little..


you won't hurt at that temp for up to 20 min at least 20 min is recomended
but us that use O/A it's hard to do..

Steve said:
then I'm going to dump it in a big thing of ATF and then we'll see who's boss!
..
Click to expand...
you won't have a hamon this way you know... :)
 
Stacy, I missed the 5-10 seconds too. For Chiro it's back to the tutorials to learn about soaking and what happens to the carbides etc.
 
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