Rick Hinderer sent Cease and Desist to Youtuber for saying the steel was soft in his knife?

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SCTorrero said:
Both parties are at fault here.

My impression is this:

1. TK is a passionate dude who has dedicated a significant portion of his life to this stuff.
2. TK gets an apparently* soft-ish sample of an RH and goes on a bit of a rant. Rant might be the wrong word. The discussion is kind of all over the place. On the one hand, its about the specific sample. This component is supported by the actual Rockwell test, but I felt went too far given that the sample was only barely out of spec (if at all, especially considering standard test margins of error). On the other, the discussion is about the spec itself, which is probably right, but doesn't really recognize that this isn't really a RH-specific issue. There is also some reasonable but unflattering supposition going on.

*The mod was a flipper delete, which seems unlikely to affect the Rockwell on the flat.

I think it's important to recognize where this is coming from (in my opinion). TK is a knife "nerd" in the best way. His business "lives" in the gap between how production knife makers do things and how they *should* be done (in his view). I suspect some of this was partially fueled by some braggadocio, but it isn't wrong (again, IMO).

3. RH responds by, essentially, calling TK a clown who doesn't know what he is talking about (I am paraphrasing).

This, combined with some anti-asian sentiment (from onlookers, not from RH) is the worst kind of fuel for the fire.

Now, I get why RH might be pissed: he's got 1 knife out of many that is barely below spec (if at all) and entirely consistent with industry standards.

4. TK can't back down now, because saying he doesn't know what he is talking about essentially undermines TK's entire legitimacy as a business. And he wasn't really "wrong," just overzealous.

5. Because TK doubled down, RH serves a cease and desist. While I understand it, it seems like a pretty awful thing to do and significantly raises the possibility that everybody here loses. I can think of a bunch of different ways to have handled this better.

I tried to be even-handed in this summary, but it is probably clear where my sympathies are. You all can decide for yourselves, but I would encourage people to go look at the actual exchanges before forming any conclusions.
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Yep, his latest post is him lowkey begging for funds to "fight the Man" and as of about an hour ago already had hundreds of comments talking about sending money to TK. It's ok to be a knife nerd. It's ok to have an opinion. But when you start trashing a company because you think your way is best, that's when I tune out. RHK hasn't built a business by selling shoddy knives. Well, no, that's not entirely true. Original generation Hinderers were terrible. The ones today are light years better. My Project X is one of the nicest knives I own.
 
Bob Denman said:
If This fella "TK" is such an expert: why doesn't he build his own knives?
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He does re blades instead of ground up re designs. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Not everyone wants to buy a knife designed for batoning through bricks and prying car doors open (like hinderer). TK focuses on great heat treat and optimized geometry, and I'd argue he does a much better job with it than any of the old guard. That's where his passion about Rockwell hardness comes from.
 
Regardless of where you stand in the HT issue, I don’t see this as anything more than Rick intimidating the guy. That opinion is colored by interactions I’ve had with Rick that should have been entirely innocuous but turned into something more by him escalating the issue. Rick didn’t contact anyone, one of his FB admins bashed the dude on the public FB group. Back to the lawsuit: if this guy gets a PPP pro bono lawyer and they hit Rick with a SLAPP back counter, it could turn quickly for him. Rick stated on FB, IIRC, that the guy was a nobody and didn’t hurt his reputation in the least. Rick’s lawyer would have to prove that, first, there are damages, that TK had the intent to damage Rick, and that what he said was knowingly fallacious when he said it.

Defend RHK all you want, to each his own. Taken from a purely legal standpoint, this doesn’t seem like something Hinderer is likely to win.
 
nattynarwhal said:
He does re blades instead of ground up re designs. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Not everyone wants to buy a knife designed for batoning through bricks and prying car doors open (like hinderer). TK focuses on great heat treat and optimized geometry, and I'd argue he does a much better job with it than any of the old guard. That's where his passion about Rockwell hardness comes from.
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You'd think since it was so much better, he'd have his own knives, and be making enough money to own a company putting a great product on the market instead of just doing reblades for other companies' products. 🤔

Also, Spyderco is one of the "Old Guard" and I know this dude's blades aren't better than what Spyderco is doing.
 
Murdamook said:
Regardless of where you stand in the HT issue, I don’t see this as anything more than Rick intimidating the guy. That opinion is colored by interactions I’ve had with Rick that should have been entirely innocuous but turned into something more by him escalating the issue. Rick didn’t contact anyone, one of his FB admins bashed the dude on the public FB group. Back to the lawsuit: if this guy gets a PPP pro bono lawyer and they hit Rick with a SLAPP back counter, it could turn quickly for him. Rick stated on FB, IIRC, that the guy was a nobody and didn’t hurt his reputation in the least. Rick’s lawyer would have to prove that, first, there are damages, that TK had the intent to damage Rick, and that what he said was knowingly fallacious when he said it.

Defend RHK all you want, to each his own. Taken from a purely legal standpoint, this doesn’t seem like something Hinderer is likely to win.
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The major issue I have with this is that I see this lawsuit as something which can be easily abused if it succeeds. Does this mean that in the future any criticisms of RHK by a public figure or business can be liable for damages he has incurred due to poor feedback? That does not seem like a great thing for the knife industry. Innovation comes through criticism and learning. And criticism is rarely comfortable for those entrenched in their own processes.
 
Quiet said:
You'd think since it was so much better, he'd have his own knives, and be making enough money to own a company putting a great product on the market instead of just doing reblades for other companies' products. 🤔

Also, Spyderco is one of the "Old Guard" and I know this dude's blades aren't better than what Spyderco is doing.
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Do you own any of his re-blades? Because I'm guessing you are basing that statement off something. At least heat treat wise he is way ahead of Spyderco if you compare apples to apples (e.g., Spyderco magnacut vs TK magnacut, Spyderco M390 vs TK M390 and Spyderco CruWear vs TK CruWear). Personally I think his work is way more impressive than anything a production or semi production company does (as it should be because he's a custom maker).
 
nattynarwhal said:
The major issue I have with this is that I see this lawsuit as something which can be easily abused if it succeeds. Does this mean that in the future any criticisms of RHK by a public figure or business can be liable for damages he has incurred due to poor feedback? That does not seem like a great thing for the knife industry. Innovation comes through criticism and learning. And criticism is rarely comfortable for those entrenched in their own processes.
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It's not a "lawsuit".

It's a "talking too".

If the recipient of the letter keeps talkin' when he should be listening? Well we know how that usually turns out whatever the case.
 
If he wants to hang his hat on heat-treating: good for him!
But I think we all know that is far from the only factor; that makes a great blade.
Speaking of which: My latest Olamic (Wayfarer 247 SheepsCliffe)
"Old Muddy" is sharper than ANY knife that I've ever bought! This thing is scary...
 
To prove prima facie defamation, a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person; 3) fault amounting to at least negligence; and 4) damages, or some harm caused to the person or entity who is the subject of the statement.

Defamation | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute​

 
nattynarwhal said:
Do you own any of his re-blades? Because I'm guessing you are basing that statement off something. At least heat treat wise he is way ahead of Spyderco if you compare apples to apples (e.g., Spyderco magnacut vs TK magnacut, Spyderco M390 vs TK M390 and Spyderco CruWear vs TK CruWear). Personally I think his work is way more impressive than anything a production or semi production company does (as it should be because he's a custom maker).
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I don't, and don't care to. Do you have proof of his heat treats being better than Spydercos based on anything other than his say-so, or some tests he's allegedly done?

Because if you don't, then you kinda start to see where I'm coming from. If you think his work is "way more impressive than anything a production or semi production company does", then it's my opinion that you are easily impressed. Please don't send me a C&D. 🤣

However, to keep this on track, I've owned (and still own) multiple Hinderers and not once did I ever use or sharpen one and think "Ya know, the heat treat on this knife is "Suboptimal", let me whip my IG followers into a frenzy."

Personally, I think this TK guy is hilariously arrogant (which is ironic, because so's Rick). The idea that a production company should be making things in a way that he sees fit cracks me up. Start a company and put out your own product, Mr. Passionate Knife Nerd, and I don't mean, reworking other peoples' work, but your work.
 
nattynarwhal said:
Do you own any of his re-blades? Because I'm guessing you are basing that statement off something. At least heat treat wise he is way ahead of Spyderco if you compare apples to apples (e.g., Spyderco magnacut vs TK magnacut, Spyderco M390 vs TK M390 and Spyderco CruWear vs TK CruWear). Personally I think his work is way more impressive than anything a production or semi production company does (as it should be because he's a custom maker).
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I don’t have anything he does, but it’s hard to compare a maker who is doing one-off custom reblades to a company like Spyderco using automation to mass produce knives. It’s much more simple for him to ensure all of his blades are dialed in.
 
Quiet said:
I don't, and don't care to. Do you have proof of his heat treats being better than Spydercos based on anything other than his say-so, or some tests he's allegedly done?

Because if you don't, then you kinda start to see where I'm coming from. If you think his work is "way more impressive than anything a production or semi production company does", then it's my opinion that you are easily impressed. Please don't send me a C&D. 🤣

However, to keep this on track, I've owned (and still own) multiple Hinderers and not once did I ever use or sharpen one and think "Ya know, the heat treat on this knife is "Suboptimal", let me whip my IG followers into a frenzy."
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I demand you cease, but don’t care if you desist, sir.
 
Quiet said:
I don't, and don't care to. Do you have proof of his heat treats being better than Spydercos based on anything other than his say-so, or some tests he's allegedly done?

Because if you don't, then you kinda start to see where I'm coming from. If you think his work is "way more impressive than anything a production or semi production company does", then it's my opinion that you are easily impressed. Please don't send me a C&D. 🤣

However, to keep this on track, I've owned (and still own) multiple Hinderers and not once did I ever use or sharpen one and think "Ya know, the heat treat on this knife is "Suboptimal", let me whip my IG followers into a frenzy."
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I mean, performance really comes from geometry. Maybe not for a user who like to beat his knives into a tree or a rock, but for cutting, geometry is what cuts. TK re blades are always ground to <0.010" and so by default they cut better than anything Spyderco or benchmade (or hinderer!) does. The heat treats always aim for a higher value so that the super thin BTE can be held up with enough strength at the edge. Heat treat by itself is just a supporting factor which holds up extreme geometry.

I'm happy that you like your hinderer knives. However, the definition of performance that a lot of the new guard in knife making goes by is obviously not what you and hinderer consider to be "performant". It's just two groups of people unable to agree on a definition at the end of the day. I just don't think it's a great move to threaten someone with a possible lawsuit because they define performance differently from you.
 
Quiet said:
I can, because I watched it all unfold on IG, "dude". How about you? Did you see the whole drama, or nah? A smalltime IG nobody has whipped his fanbase into outrage over something that Hinderer has done for years, because his fans think his opinion is fact, when it isn't.
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Yes, I did, and I also watched the lengthy live stream between the USA Blade proprietor and Brian, where they talked through the whole thing ... with Hinderer whining in the comments section and his fanboys dishing out racist filth. At one point Brian had to interject that he's not of Chinese descent, but rather Korean descent, so could folks please adjust their racist comments accordingly? 😂
 
Murdamook said:
I don’t have anything he does, but it’s hard to compare a maker who is doing one-off custom reblades to a company like Spyderco using automation to mass produce knives. It’s much more simple for him to ensure all of his blades are dialed in.
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Well, what does "dialed in" ultimately mean? As someone said a few pages ago, a knife's purpose is to cut, right? Well, do TK's knives somehow cut demonstrably better than "anything a production company or semi-production company" can make? Because, sorry, I don't believe that in the slightest.
 
nattynarwhal said:
I mean, performance really comes from geometry. Maybe not for a user who like to beat his knives into a tree or a rock, but for cutting, geometry is what cuts. TK re blades are always ground to <0.010" and so by default they cut better than anything Spyderco or benchmade (or hinderer!) does. The heat treats always aim for a higher value so that the super thin BTE can be held up with enough strength at the edge. Heat treat by itself is just a supporting factor which holds up extreme geometry.

I'm happy that you like your hinderer knives. However, the definition of performance that a lot of the new guard in knife making goes by is obviously not what you and hinderer consider to be "performant". It's just two groups of people unable to agree on a definition at the end of the day. I just don't think it's a great move to threaten someone with a possible lawsuit because they define performance differently from you.
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Huh. "If you don't agree with me, one of this "New Guard" people seem to be talking about, then you're wrong and I'll trash your products on my IG page that has thousands of followers, who'll then repost, or make posts of their own bringing extra attention to my comments. Jeez guys, I can't believe Rick Hinderer's lawyer sent me a letter! Followers, I'd sure hate to have to apologize, and I just can't, you know....afford it......."

Also, having an edge that thin would be absolutely nothing to brag about unless all you want to do is slice phone book paper for "Likes". That is hilariously dumb.
 
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