Rick Hinderer sent Cease and Desist to Youtuber for saying the steel was soft in his knife?

[Boattale]

Who's Rick Hiinderer?

 

[sgt1372]

Taken from a purely legal standpoint, this doesn’t seem like something Hinderer is likely to win.

The "burden of proof" is on Hinderer but there's no way to know at this point whether Hinderer can yet prove ("beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the legal standard of proof for a civil action) that:

1) Kim's statements about Hinderer's knives are FALSE (and/or misleading) and that
2) Hinderer has suffered any "damages" as a result.

So, it's premature to "conclude that "this doesn't seem like something Hinderer is likely to win" at this point.

Also, even if Hinderer cannot prove any financial damages, he could still "win" by obtaining an INJUNCTION vs Kim prohibiting from him making any statements proven to be FALSE (or misleading statement) about Hinderer's knives AND, if Kim violates the injuction, he could still be slapped w/civil penalties as a result.

 

[nattynarwhal]

Huh. "If you don't agree with me, one of this "New Guard" people seem to be talking about, then you're wrong and I'll trash your products on my IG page that has thousands of followers, who'll then repost, or make posts of their own bringing extra attention to my comments. Jeez guys, I can't believe Rick Hinderer's lawyer sent me a letter!"

I mean, the way he defines performance, his knives objectively have superior cutting geometry than hinderer. You asked if there was an objective way that we could say his knives outperform hinderer's and I have just provided an objective measure of that for you. The IG rant is another matter altogether.

 

[Quiet]

I mean, the way he defines performance, his knives objectively have superior cutting geometry than hinderer. You asked if there was an objective way that we could say his knives outperform hinderer's and I have just provided an objective measure of that for you. The IG rant is another matter altogether.

That's one aspect. Can an edge that thin stand up to the various materials other knives with thicker edges might have no issue with? If not, then that's an inferior edge. So, I would disagree that knives with a friggin' less than ten degree inclusive edge is "superior", since I'd like to know that I'm not going to chip it all to hell if I need to go through thick cardboard, or open a bag of cement.

Ooooohhhh....wait. I'm sorry, I completely forgot that we're talking about Instagram people who don't do any of that. I retract the statement.

 

[Yo Mama]

The "burden of proof" is on Hinderer but there's no way to know at this point whether Hinderer can yet prove (beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the legal standard of proof for a civil action) that:

1) Kim's statements about Hinderer's knives are FALSE (and/or misleading) and that
2) Hinderer has suffered any "damages" as a result.

So, it's premature to "conclude that "this doesn't seem like something Hinderer is likely to win" at this point.

To build on your point with question number 2, there are usually a few people who chime in saying that they would never buy now from so-and-so, insert the blank. I wonder if that has the ability in and of itself show damages?

 

[Murdamook]

Well, what does "dialed in" ultimately mean? As someone said a few pages ago, a knife's purpose is to cut, right? Well, do TK's knives somehow cut demonstrably better than "anything a production company or semi-production company" can make? Because, sorry, I don't believe that in the slightest.

I just mean he can be more attentive to a single knife than can Spyderco. We all have Spyderco knives with burnt edges, uneven grinds, etc. to at least some degree. That’s just the cost of doing as much business as they do. They can’t run around with an angle guide and caliper to ensure all grinds are even and that the edge angle is spot on. He does one blade at a time and isn’t nearly as inundated as Spyderco, so for the guy I was replying to compare them using that standard, is unfair to Spyderco.

 

[Quiet]

Yes, I did, and I also watched the lengthy live stream between the USA Blade proprietor and Brian, where they talked through the whole thing ... with Hinderer whining in the comments section and his fanboys dishing out racist filth. At one point Brian had to interject that he's not of Chinese descent, but rather Korean descent, so could folks please adjust their racist comments accordingly?

That was despicable, I agree. However, the hundreds of people who were saying in the comments of TK's original livestream (before the one with Whitty) how Hinderer sucks and they'd never buy another, and all this. Looks to me like some specific possible lost sales. Will it wash? Probably not, but I imagine pages of those comments were probably screenshotted.

 

[Blues]

Yes, I did, and I also watched the lengthy live stream between the USA Blade proprietor and Brian, where they talked through the whole thing ... with Hinderer whining in the comments section and his fanboys dishing out racist filth. At one point Brian had to interject that he's not of Chinese descent, but rather Korean descent, so could folks please adjust their racist comments accordingly?

If that's true, it's disgusting, frankly.

Speaking for myself, some of my heroes are Korean...

 

[Murdamook]

To build on your point with question number 2, there are usually a few people who chime in saying that they would never buy now from so-and-so, insert the blank. I wonder if that has the ability in and of itself show damages?

The second question is actually the fourth in a string of questions. Those questions have to be answered individually and in order. So, if the first question (in the highlighted post) isn’t answered, then the damages don’t matter. So, ultimately, if it gets to the damages stage, then I’m sure that might make a bit of a difference. RHK likely would sue for a specific amount and then have to show the reason for estimating that amount, and I image that could go into the estimate.

 

[shane45-1911]

If This fella "TK" is such an expert: why doesn't he build his own knives?

Ummmmm.....he does.

 

[Quiet]

I just mean he can be more attentive to a single knife than can Spyderco. We all have Spyderco knives with burnt edges, uneven grinds, etc. to at least some degree. That’s just the cost of doing as much business as they do. They can’t run around with an angle guide and caliper to ensure all grinds are even and that the edge angle is spot on. He does one blade at a time and isn’t nearly as inundated as Spyderco, so for the guy I was replying to compare them using that standard, is unfair to Spyderco.

Which, I'll agree, I can understand that. However, if his edges are truly that thin, that tells me that extreme geometry is more important than realworld use, and I'm just not ever going to agree that that's the way to go, which is why it's laughable that he went after Hinderer for this. He could use his same ridiculous viewpoint for every single knife maker out there. Like, read the room, guy, there's a reason why companies don't run their edges that thin, can you guess what it is?

 

[patrickguignot]

That's the issue. RHK doesn't design his knives to be super slicey cutters. That they aren't slicey cutters is a surprise to literally no one. They're heavy, thick-bladed folding knives designed to be abused. Running a blade with a thinner edge and at a higher rockwell would ABSOLUTELY make it less durable against abuse, which would be counter to what I'd designed it to do.

If they are "heavy, thick-bladed knives designed to be abused" then why chose a low toughness steel like CPM-20CV ?
Why not keep the tougher CPM-S35VN that was used before ? I have one XM-18 and one XM-24 in S35VN and, indeed, they are good hard-use folders. I never understood the switch to 20CV for these models.
Here is Larrin comment about M390/20CV toughness :

"The microstructure is relatively coarse for a powder metallurgy steel and it has a high volume of carbide, which means that the toughness of the steel is relatively low."

Hinderer try to compensate this intrinsic low toughness of 20CV by aiming for a low Rockwell hardness. That is clearly suboptimal. And 59-61 HRC is already a very large hardness window so it's disappointing to learn you can find specimens outside this window (on the low side).

 

[DocJD]

If the wife asks ," Is that (another) new knife ?"

It's not smart to pump energy into it . Scream and yell , threaten divorce .

At most , you'd say (very bland and bored, with a wry chuckle ) , " Uh...this old thing ? " and change the subject in a pleasant direction .

Even if RH crushes this guy legally , I think it will not look good to most people .

Should have ignored this little upstart and maybe done a Cold Steel like proof test video and featured also testing results from some respected lab .

Most people would never even heard about this crap without RH pouring gas on the fire .

 

[nattynarwhal]

That's one aspect. Can an edge that thin stand up to the various materials other knives with thicker edges might have no issue with? If not, then that's an inferior edge. So, I would disagree that knives with a friggin' less than ten degree inclusive edge is "superior", since I'd like to know that I'm not going to chip it all to hell if I need to go through thick cardboard, or open a bag of cement.

Ooooohhhh....wait. I'm sorry, I completely forgot that we're talking about Instagram people who don't do any of that. I retract the statement.

See you're mixing up behind the edge thickness with edge angle. Easy mistake to make, but these sorts of details are what TK and other makers like him are so passionate about. BTE is the thickness at the shoulder of the apex where the sharpened edge begins. The edge angle is the angle at which the sharpened edge is actually sharpened. at a 10 degree inclusive angle you'd likely see chipping all over the place! And if you heat treated your knife too soft, it'd have nasty rolls instead. This is why heat treat is so essential to holding more extreme geometry.

Use a knife with a great geometry and a tough steel (like M4, 4v, cruwear or magnacut) combined with a bomb heat treat, and you'll build a laser that can cut through cardboard easily. But this is where knife making philosophies diverge which is totally fine. Some people live knives that yo can stick into a tree and stand on. But the geometry of such a knife (like a hinderer) will never be conducive to efficient slicing mechanics. And that's fine as well. People are allowed to define performance in their own way, and threatening someone with a lawsuit because of that seems petty and insecure.

 

[Murdamook]

The "burden of proof" is on Hinderer but there's no way to know at this point whether Hinderer can yet prove ("beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the legal standard of proof for a civil action) that:

1) Kim's statements about Hinderer's knives are FALSE (and/or misleading) and that
2) Hinderer has suffered any "damages" as a result.

So, it's premature to "conclude that "this doesn't seem like something Hinderer is likely to win" at this point.

Also, even if Hinderer cannot prove any financial damages, he could still "win" by obtaining an INJUNCTION vs Kim prohibiting from him making any statements proven to be FALSE (or misleading statement) about Hinderer's knives AND, if Kim violates the injuction, he could still be slapped w/civil penalties as a result.

Considering my qualifier was “seem”, I feel my statement isn’t out of line, since “seem” implies a hypothetical based on what’s known.

Also, since TK is in California, Hinderer would have to sue him in that jurisdiction. There’s a high likelihood of a lawyer focusing on Anti-SLAPP legislation. Rick could actually have to payout on this.

 

[Fonedork]

You can't sue someone for saying you suck. If the tested hardness was a fraction of a point below the stated HRC range like he said, then he's not being defamatory by publishing that result because it is factually truthful. Suboptimal, soft, sucks are all opinions and not actionable. This guy should send me a check for this post once he collects all his crowdfunding.

 

[Murdamook]

Which, I'll agree, I can understand that. However, if his edges are truly that thin, that tells me that extreme geometry is more important than realworld use, and I'm just not ever going to agree that that's the way to go, which is why it's laughable that he went after Hinderer for this. He could use his same ridiculous viewpoint for every single knife maker out there. Like, read the room, guy, there's a reason why companies don't run their edges that thin, can you guess what it is?

Oh yeah, I wasn’t saying that he is doing something right, more that he could pay more attention to an individual knife than production companies can.

 

[Quiet]

See you're mixing up behind the edge thickness with edge angle. Easy mistake to make, but these sorts of details are what TK and other makers like him are so passionate about. BTE is the thickness at the shoulder of the apex where the sharpened edge begins. The edge angle is the angle at which the sharpened edge is actually sharpened. at a 10 degree inclusive angle you'd likely see chipping all over the place! And if you heat treated your knife too soft, it'd have nasty rolls instead. This is why heat treat is so essential to holding more extreme geometry.

Use a knife with a great geometry and a tough steel (like M4, 4v, cruwear or magnacut) combined with a bomb heat treat, and you'll build a laser that can cut through cardboard easily. But this is where knife making philosophies diverge which is totally fine. Some people live knives that yo can stick into a tree and stand on. But the geometry of such a knife (like a hinderer) will never be conducive to efficient slicing mechanics. And that's fine as well. People are allowed to define performance in their own way, and threatening someone with a lawsuit because of that seems petty and insecure.

No, I'm not. A less than ten degree inclusive edge is ultra thin. If I'd been talking about the thickness behind the edge, I'd have stated it.

Also, all this talk of passion. Why is it cool to be passionate enough to call a major knife maker out on something you think is wrong because you're just way smarter (I mean, right?) but when Rick was defending himself, it was just "complaining"?

Lastly, I'm well aware of what a very fine edge and a good heat treat can do.....right up until it chips out. So, I'd pass on that personally. Also, remember, TK "defined" Hinderer's way of doing it as wrong, to his many thousands of followers. Dude responded how any business would in this situation. Two extremely arrogant personalities are clashing, I'm just watching from the cheap seats at this point.

 

[sgt1372]

To build on your point with question number 2, there are usually a few people who chime in saying that they would never buy now from so-and-so, insert the blank. I wonder if that has the ability in and of itself show damages?

For financial damages, Hinderer would have to prove that his company's business income was directly affected by Kim's statement, which is an admittedly a difficult proof.

However, making a false statement about a person or company is still a legal injury that is entitled to relief and, in a case where no or little financial damages can be proven, INJUNCTIVE relief is still important because, if Hinderer can PROVE that Kim made false statements about his company and/or products, Kim can be forced to retract and no longer make such statements and, if he violates the injuction, he can be subject to civil and ciminal penalties enforceable by the STATE (not Hinderer) and that's no joke!

 

[Murdamook]

Can I sue both of them for making me engage this topic far more than I probably should? My OCD is such that it makes it impossible to not jump headlong into the drama.