Ridiculously steep factory angles?

H

Hadji Flip Me Over

Joined
Mar 1, 2010
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Every so often, I get a knife from a manufacturer (partial to Bussekins, ZT, and the like; all very reputable makers) that ships with an edge that is barely useable. I noticed that these edges to be somewhere around 40 degrees per side by rough estimate. This isn't a problem for people with Edge Pros or other very high quality sharpeners, but in my particular case, I'm stuck with a Lansky diamond hone set. It works very well for regular sharpening of smaller knives (~4" or less), but it's terrible for re-profiling. Ideally, I'd like to have my Scrapyard 511 around 30 degrees inclusive, but I'd spend the rest of the summer trying to get it there. As a result, I have to settle for shaving it down to 60 inclusive and not take full advantage of SR-101's ridiculous sharpenability. I'd love to get something better suited for the job, but it's just not in the cards right now.

Is there a reason why most manufacturers put such steep angles on blades from the factory? Or does it just depend on the person sharpening in the factory? I understand that it takes less time per knife and technically makes the edge more durable (thus freeing them from liability of people who abuse blades), but it's not a knife if you can't cut anything with it. In short, shouldn't a knife ship from the factory with ideal, or at least functional cutting geometry?
 
Their legal department probably advised them to apply the safety edge to avoid liability. If they sell you a sharp object and you hurt yourself with it, you could sue them.
 
Hadji Flip Me Over said:
Every so often, I get a knife from a manufacturer (partial to Bussekins, ZT, and the like; all very reputable makers) that ships with an edge that is barely useable. I noticed that these edges to be somewhere around 40 degrees per side by rough estimate. This isn't a problem for people with Edge Pros or other very high quality sharpeners, but in my particular case, I'm stuck with a Lansky diamond hone set. It works very well for regular sharpening of smaller knives (~4" or less), but it's terrible for re-profiling. Ideally, I'd like to have my Scrapyard 511 around 30 degrees inclusive, but I'd spend the rest of the summer trying to get it there. As a result, I have to settle for shaving it down to 60 inclusive and not take full advantage of SR-101's ridiculous sharpenability. I'd love to get something better suited for the job, but it's just not in the cards right now.

Is there a reason why most manufacturers put such steep angles on blades from the factory? Or does it just depend on the person sharpening in the factory? I understand that it takes less time per knife and technically makes the edge more durable (thus freeing them from liability of people who abuse blades), but it's not a knife if you can't cut anything with it. In short, shouldn't a knife ship from the factory with ideal, or at least functional cutting geometry?
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Easy--because thicker edges don't take off as much material from the primary grind so it's faster to grind an obtuse edge at the factory than a thin one. Long story short, it's corner cutting. Whether it's the fault of the company or the fault of the individual doing the grinding is harder to pin down in most cases.
 
My Spydercos have always been around 30 inclusive, my Benchmades on the other hand. They must be around 60 to 70 inclusive. CRKT a very nice thin grind aswell, but I only have one. My Benchmades are horrible. It's just easier and quicker to do a steep angle.

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My recent Queen Cutlery and Ontario RAT's have been that way. They should drop the price to reflect the time it takes to regrind the edge.
 
After the woman sued McDonalds because she spilled hot coffee in her lap, and won, I'm afraid it's serious. Unlikely, but serious. More probably the root cause is workers who just don't care, but Queen has such consistently atrocious edges that it makes me wonder.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Easy--because thicker edges don't take off as much material from the primary grind so it's faster to grind an obtuse edge at the factory than a thin one. Long story short, it's corner cutting. Whether it's the fault of the company or the fault of the individual doing the grinding is harder to pin down in most cases.
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That's about what I thought. Makes for a very disappointing first impression, not to mention the amount of work involved with re-profiling in some cases.

The car dealer doesn't force you to replace the tires on a brand-new vehicle because some idiot burned them off during a test-drive, so what makes some (not all!) knifemakers think a product shouldn't be useable out of the box?
 
Try a Bark River, then you'll be complaining that the edge is too thin.

They have received a lot of flack about their super thin edges in the past, and if nothing has changed you should be fairly impressed.
 
yablanowitz said:
After the woman sued McDonalds because she spilled hot coffee in her lap, and won, I'm afraid it's serious. Unlikely, but serious. More probably the root cause is workers who just don't care, but Queen has such consistently atrocious edges that it makes me wonder.
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In the McDonald's case, the coffee product(cup, coffee, and preparation are included in what constitutes the "product") was argued to be "defectively manufactured" by the plaintiff's attorneys. Coffee is not intended to be dangerous to people, so the jury ruled that McDonalds was 80% at fault for the injury.

When local governments in the US have gone after firearms manufacturers(for acts committed by criminals) on product liability grounds, they have failed, essentially since it was because the products were working as designed that they were effective. The firearms were designed to do what firearms do, therefore their dangerousness did not constitute a "defect."

Since a knife is designed to cut, a sharp knife shipped with proper warnings and safe packaging would not expose it's manufacturer to product liability based on "defective product" arguments.
 
It is a peevish subject for me.

I don't normally use my Lansky to re-profile any more (at least a decade or more using one). It can be a pain, and the bigger blades are a real bear.

I normally convex by hand, or with my belt sander. On the belt sander, is sure as heck goes a lot quicker!


It does miff me when I can get a $40 or less production knife, with a shaving sharp edge, and then have to spend hours working on an edge from a 600+ knife to get it cutting.


I don't have any hard feelings with a slightly obtuse edge, but down right silly edges irk me.
 
Thin cuts better, always will.

Thick edges seems to be the in thing. Maybe stronger?

Moose
 
I think they do it because so many users are so dumb: using knives in the way that kills the edge immediately or simply cutting themselves badly if it is ground too thin or too sharp. And most users have very different sharpness standards anyway. I know from my own experience.
From those users who really like it very sharp many can do re-profiling relatively easily and do not see it an issue.
So the manufacturers have to look at it statistically and weight all pros and cons. For those who operate in niche markets (targeting collectors or self-defence enthusiasts for example) it pays off to go more aggressive with sharpening. For those dealing in wider general market: better to be safe than sorry... It makes total sense to me, no BS.
 
gomipile said:
In the McDonald's case, the coffee product(cup, coffee, and preparation are included in what constitutes the "product") was argued to be "defectively manufactured" by the plaintiff's attorneys. Coffee is not intended to be dangerous to people, so the jury ruled that McDonalds was 80% at fault for the injury.

When local governments in the US have gone after firearms manufacturers(for acts committed by criminals) on product liability grounds, they have failed, essentially since it was because the products were working as designed that they were effective. The firearms were designed to do what firearms do, therefore their dangerousness did not constitute a "defect."

Since a knife is designed to cut, a sharp knife shipped with proper warnings and safe packaging would not expose it's manufacturer to product liability based on "defective product" arguments.
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It was also stated that her initial asking was for coverage of the medical costs from 3rd degree burns, most of which were done to her genitals. It was also shown in court that over 200 similar cases had been filed against McDonalds, however the Cost-benefit analysis for the company showed it to be far easier to push the cases back and post pone as much as possible, another example of the "one-shotters vs. Repeat players" in Before the Law by Bonsignore - Katsh - D'Errico - Pipkin - Arons - Rifkin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

http://overlawyered.com/index.php/2...stella-liebeck-and-the-mcdonalds-coffee-case/

For the OP, it is very frustrating to see that, I too use a Lansky kit, and while the Diamond hone is a good buy, it does take awhile to reprofile large knives with obtuse angles, Though I hear good things about DMT, might give that a look.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Easy--because thicker edges don't take off as much material from the primary grind so it's faster to grind an obtuse edge at the factory than a thin one. Long story short, it's corner cutting. Whether it's the fault of the company or the fault of the individual doing the grinding is harder to pin down in most cases.
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Come on now. If one thing can be said about the Busse-kin companies, they are not prone to cutting corners. If you don't like the angle, give them a call or an email and see if they will reprofile it for you. Heck, they are the first to bend over backwards for their customers. I can only speculate as to why the edge angles are so large. Probably because it appeals to every common denominator. It always easier to take metal off later than to put it back.
 
There are a few sharpening services that use the Edge-pro as part of their main equipment. I'm sure they would be very happy to put any edge you want on just about any knife you can mail to them.
 
shipping a dull knife and leaving it to the user to sharpen it any way he wants is not so ridiculous an idea. it will also create a profession of sharpeners (or a booming trade in guided sharpening systems.)
 
yablanowitz said:
Their legal department probably advised them to apply the safety edge to avoid liability. If they sell you a sharp object and you hurt yourself with it, you could sue them.
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Are you serious? It's a knife. It's meant to cut. You're really saying that "how sharp a knife is" can determine how liable a manufacturer is? I hope this isn't true.

I've gotten some damn near dull knives and question how they left the factory. Hell, one knife was duller than a butter knife. I could saw my arm with it and not draw blood. My knives are 25 inclusive after I get done sharpening them.

I cannot imagine a knife cutting anything well with 60 degrees inclusive. 30 degrees per side? I feel bad for the OP.

And 80 degrees might as well be 90 degrees. Imagine trying to cut something with the edge angle of the corner of your desk.
 
yablanowitz said:
After the woman sued McDonalds because she spilled hot coffee in her lap, and won, I'm afraid it's serious. Unlikely, but serious. More probably the root cause is workers who just don't care, but Queen has such consistently atrocious edges that it makes me wonder.
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That McDonalds case wasn't as simple as woman spilled coffee... She did get serious burns requiring lengthy treatment, skin grafts, etc. Well, that's OT.
As for the edges, blame IMHO is equal, abusive/ignorant users who either don't know any better and destroy thin edges. Who'd want to deal with all the returns and warranty issues....
 
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