Ridiculously steep factory angles?

I'm lead to believe it's also because of the knife's intended uses. you'll get thick edges and steep angles on lots of busse-kin because they are meant to be used hard. you wouldn't find a kitchen slicer like that, even from common prosumer brands.
 
If you can afford ZT's and Bussekins, it shouldn't be too difficult to get an Edgepro. You could even sell off some of the knives you have to buy it. When I first got into knives I didn't even want to buy a sharpener, but now I see it as something that's just as important as the knife. It reminds me of that anecdote about how a good woodsman will devote half of his tree-chopping time to sharpening his ax. Sure, a knife sharpener isn't as flashy and exciting as a new knife, but you need a good one the moment you buy your first blade.
 
climbingrocks said:
Come on now. If one thing can be said about the Busse-kin companies, they are not prone to cutting corners. If you don't like the angle, give them a call or an email and see if they will reprofile it for you. Heck, they are the first to bend over backwards for their customers. I can only speculate as to why the edge angles are so large. Probably because it appeals to every common denominator. It always easier to take metal off later than to put it back.
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uyotg said:
I'm lead to believe it's also because of the knife's intended uses. you'll get thick edges and steep angles on lots of busse-kin because they are meant to be used hard. you wouldn't find a kitchen slicer like that, even from common prosumer brands.
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As far as Bussekin specifically go I agree with uyotg, in that it's because of the fact that many of them are designed for abuse rather than "normal" use. And thick edges do NOT appeal to the common denominator. Moderate edge angle of 20 degrees per side have been accepted as the industry standard because of the balance between durability and function it provides. Deviation from this standard either reflects deliberate change because of design requirements or a case of corner cutting by either the manufacturer or specific employee doing the grinding. It also can reflect a lack of skill or experience on the part of that employee.
 
It may be all this talk that batoning is THE number one thing a knife should be able to do well.
 
Hadji Flip Me Over said:
Is there a reason why most manufacturers put such steep angles on blades from the factory?
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Its a more durable edge, which reduces returns for chipped and rolled edges. And that affects the bottom line. Everything a manufacturer does is determined by the profit/loss calculus.
 
If your willing to pay shipping both ways I would be happy to sharpen it on my wicked edge for you free of charge. Let me know if your interested. Bpiatt@live.com
 
Since everyone has their own taste in blades and angle and level of sharpness, it does make sense to leave the blades in a condition where the complainers can have it their way. However that being said, it's nice they show how with a minimum of work their blades can be sharpened to a serviceable edge and come that way out of the box. You can't please everyone no matter what you do anyway. This thread is proof. Maybe one day I'll get my Cara Cara 2's blade worked down to a reasonable angle. :( :cool: ...and maybe not!
 
Gator97 said:
That McDonalds case wasn't as simple as woman spilled coffee... She did get serious burns requiring lengthy treatment, skin grafts, etc. Well, that's OT.
As for the edges, blame IMHO is equal, abusive/ignorant users who either don't know any better and destroy thin edges. Who'd want to deal with all the returns and warranty issues....
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all true about the mcd's coffee deal, but it comes down to.....user handling. everyone knows hot coffee burns and can badly. when someone handles a cup poorly(which is the case in this instance) who's fault is it?

since i'm off topic, figure i'll ....thank you Sir for your website and charts, really useful....really appreciate them.

on topic.....i find not only bad angles on about all production knifes, but uneven angles on each side on every knive i have ever bought from every manufacturer. some are sharp in the end, allot are not. guess it falls inline with the set the angles yourself tool industry going way back. although to me, it seems silly for a knife maker to take the time to try to sharpen the knife, but do so poorly at it.

there is sometimes included instructions to mention this, how to re-sharpen one's knife, but often it points at the 25-30 degree inclusive resharpening range. which it often is no where near that from the factory. so i guess lacking sums it up, imho. seems the industry understands this need to re-profile a knife, but the general public got left out along the way. yeah i know the old try sharpening myself for hours on end and see how well i do routine. in the end it is what it is.
 
Tsujigiri said:
If you can afford ZT's and Bussekins, it shouldn't be too difficult to get an Edgepro. You could even sell off some of the knives you have to buy it. When I first got into knives I didn't even want to buy a sharpener, but now I see it as something that's just as important as the knife. It reminds me of that anecdote about how a good woodsman will devote half of his tree-chopping time to sharpening his ax. Sure, a knife sharpener isn't as flashy and exciting as a new knife, but you need a good one the moment you buy your first blade.
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I do plan on getting the Apex 4, but in the meantime, I'm stuck with less-than-ideal geometry on a few of my blades because they weren't properly sharpened from the factory. To fix that requires insane amounts of time that I don't feel like spending on getting just one knife sharp.
 
Hadji Flip Me Over said:
Every so often, I get a knife from a manufacturer (partial to Bussekins, ZT, and the like; all very reputable makers) that ships with an edge that is barely useable. I noticed that these edges to be somewhere around 40 degrees per side by rough estimate. This isn't a problem for people with Edge Pros or other very high quality sharpeners, but in my particular case, I'm stuck with a Lansky diamond hone set. It works very well for regular sharpening of smaller knives (~4" or less), but it's terrible for re-profiling. Ideally, I'd like to have my Scrapyard 511 around 30 degrees inclusive, but I'd spend the rest of the summer trying to get it there. As a result, I have to settle for shaving it down to 60 inclusive and not take full advantage of SR-101's ridiculous sharpenability. I'd love to get something better suited for the job, but it's just not in the cards right now.

Is there a reason why most manufacturers put such steep angles on blades from the factory? Or does it just depend on the person sharpening in the factory? I understand that it takes less time per knife and technically makes the edge more durable (thus freeing them from liability of people who abuse blades), but it's not a knife if you can't cut anything with it. In short, shouldn't a knife ship from the factory with ideal, or at least functional cutting geometry?
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People pound on those Bussekin knives with hammers, logs and other things, chop through metal with them and other crazy stuff so those steep angles on the edges are a given due to the expected use.

Now when talking about the others and that will vary from manufacturer and model.

If the model is slated as a hard use knife it will have steeper angles on it.

For the other types of knives it's a pretty safe bet to go in the 20-25 degrees per side range because the manufacturers really don't know what those knives will be used for and there is no way for them to know.

So what happens for the most part is they make the safe call and let the customers adjust those edge angles.
 
Gosh, it hurts to buy an Edge Pro, when for the same money I can easily pick up a Spyderco Para2 in M390.
Probably that's why so many of my new knives are dull.
Sonnydaze
 
Ankerson said:
People pound on those Bussekin knives with hammers, logs and other things, chop through metal with them and other crazy stuff so those steep angles on the edges are a given due to the expected use.

Now when talking about the others and that will vary from manufacturer and model.

If the model is slated as a hard use knife it will have steeper angles on it.

For the other types of knives it's a pretty safe bet to go in the 20-25 degrees per side range because the manufacturers really don't know what those knives will be used for and there is no way for them to know.

So what happens for the most part is they make the safe call and let the customers adjust those edge angles.
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The "hard-use" crap seems like it's just an excuse for idiots to beat blades in unimaginable ways when they could simply use a proper tool for the job. People who actually want to cut things suffer because the company has to cover their butts by putting stupid angles on the blades from the factory. I completely understand their reasoning for doing so, but they also shouldn't encourage gross abuse and misuse of their products. For example, I know I can put my Scrapyards through hell and they'll just ask for more, but what if I treat the 511 like an actual knife and use it to slice things? The angle of the factory blade geometry and my current sharpening situation stops me from getting the most out of the blade.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but the culture of knife abusers is so frustrating. :grumpy:
 
I honestly feel that too many companies are caving in to the folks on the 'net that beat a fine slicer with a hammer into an elm log then complain when the blade doesn't handle it. Whatever happened to cutting with knives? I'm all for batoning within reason but it's being taken to a stupid extreme by a lot of folks, and it's pushing the knife industry in a direction opposite from what yields truly exceptional performance under controlled and informed use. In my opinion, at least. I'm really not sure why so many models now have blades with thicker spines than what industrial beef-splitting cleavers used to have. It's a little excessive if you ask me. If it's thick enough to go through the hardened bones of a dead cow, I think that's about as thick as most blades need to go, realistically.:o Also, those old cleavers had broad flat-ground blades of pretty close to true taper, so the actual region doing the bulk of the cutting was much thinner than the actual spine thickness, so bear that thought in mind when envisioning my viewpoint above.
 
I think it's because these knives are made for the general public. In my experience, the general public hasn't the slightest clue 1) what a sharp knife is and 2) how to sharpen a knife. I've met people with $80 stones who don't know how to use them. Higher angles stay sharp longer, and therefore work better for the "less-than-inclined-to-sharpen" crowd.

How many reviews have you seen online that mention how the knife is "sharp right out of the box"? Then they update the review after three months and say "Well the knife isn't as sharp as it was when I got it, but it still cuts pretty good! I love company X for putting such a great edge on the knife". If knife companies want good reviews from the general population, it's probably a necessary evil for them.
 
Hadji Flip Me Over said:
The "hard-use" crap seems like it's just an excuse for idiots to beat blades in unimaginable ways when they could simply use a proper tool for the job. People who actually want to cut things suffer because the company has to cover their butts by putting stupid angles on the blades from the factory. I completely understand their reasoning for doing so, but they also shouldn't encourage gross abuse and misuse of their products. For example, I know I can put my Scrapyards through hell and they'll just ask for more, but what if I treat the 511 like an actual knife and use it to slice things? The angle of the factory blade geometry and my current sharpening situation stops me from getting the most out of the blade.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but the culture of knife abusers is so frustrating. :grumpy:
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It's usually best to think about the intended use before picking a knife. :)

I wouldn't pick a Busse NMFBM as a kitchen knife nor use a thin ground custom to chop with.

Different types of knives for different uses.
 
Shawn7656 said:
I think it's because these knives are made for the general public. In my experience, the general public hasn't the slightest clue 1) what a sharp knife is and 2) how to sharpen a knife. I've met people with $80 stones who don't know how to use them. Higher angles stay sharp longer, and therefore work better for the "less-than-inclined-to-sharpen" crowd.
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And they won't find out if they only get sold dull ones! :D That reminds me that I've got an ultra basic sharpening guide that I wrote up a while back that I need to upload to my site. Gotta' do my part to combat the Army of Dull! :p
 
yablanowitz said:
Their legal department probably advised them to apply the safety edge to avoid liability. If they sell you a sharp object and you hurt yourself with it, you could sue them.
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It would seem to me that if someone bought a knife on the assumption of it being a cutting tool, and that knife did not cut, or cut well enough/fast enough when it was supposed to, i.e., during an emergency, that the user could also sue.

Since a knife is a cutting tool, I would assume than anyone purchasing a knife should know that it is (or should be) sharp. That's why many (all?) knife companies include a cautionary warning on the paper that comes with their knives.
Jim
 
Hadji Flip Me Over said:
...but they also shouldn't encourage gross abuse and misuse of their products. .
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Agreed, but that's what people want. Manufacturers HAVE to encourage gross abuse of their knives or their knives wont sell.

Crazy. But, the knife makers are just doing business and it seems that the number of knife buyers who care about their knife actually cutting things is getting smaller and smaller.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
As far as Bussekin specifically go I agree with uyotg, in that it's because of the fact that many of them are designed for abuse rather than "normal" use. And thick edges do NOT appeal to the common denominator. Moderate edge angle of 20 degrees per side have been accepted as the industry standard because of the balance between durability and function it provides. Deviation from this standard either reflects deliberate change because of design requirements or a case of corner cutting by either the manufacturer or specific employee doing the grinding. It also can reflect a lack of skill or experience on the part of that employee.
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I believe this is what we call a false dichotomy. Consider arguing this point in court. "Your honor, I know the intentions of the plaintiff, due to my knowledge of their thoughts at the time they performed the act. No, your honor. They did not confess or speak with me directly, but because something similar happened to myself or someone I know, the same thing must also be true in this case."
Who knows, maybe the angle they use has something to do with Masonic symbolism. Maybe they really like the number 60 because Andy Rooney was their personal hero. There is no limit to the number of fantastic stories we can come up with.
 
climbingrocks said:
I believe this is what we call a false dichotomy. Consider arguing this point in court. "Your honor, I know the intentions of the plaintiff, due to my knowledge of their thoughts at the time they performed the act. No, your honor. They did not confess or speak with me directly, but because something similar happened to myself or someone I know, the same thing must also be true in this case."
Who knows, maybe the angle they use has something to do with Masonic symbolism. Maybe they really like the number 60 because Andy Rooney was their personal hero. There is no limit to the number of fantastic stories we can come up with.
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It is extrapolation based on logic. I'm not literally saying that the reasoning behind things HAS to be what I said, but based on my understanding of the industry I consider it by far the most likely circumstance. Indeed, it's conjecture--but conjecture based on industry trends.
 
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