Rites of Passage in a Modern world.

[untamed]

Very interesting Tal, both your topic and your line of work; something touching cultural and anthropological tones.

Early man had it rough, especially those coming from the more militant lineages. The Greeek Spartans had the agoge. The Koreans had their hwa rang. If I remember right, the Sioux had their Tah-Na-Ee-Ka(?)

As a Filipino too, my culture is vastly different from you guys, as shaped by third-world conditions of Malay-Polynesian ancestry and customs with Spanish Catholicism thrown in. For most boys, I remember that getting circumcised was part of the overall sense of "one step closer to being a man" (I got "clipped" when I was 7).


I will have to go with Shotgun here though -

Rituals only mean something if you believe them to mean something. We only lose something by not doing them if you believe we've lost something by not doing them.

Life---and by extension, the customs, trends and institutions we establish---is what we make of it.

Furthermore, everything evolves and changes, some good, some bad.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I would admit that there are many "moments" which we today consider to be rights of passage however I would argue that most in "typical American culture" seem to be very watered down. In many cultures the rite of passage into adulthood is fairly concrete, comes with significant responsibilities and happens through a fairly dramatic/quick transition. My culture seems to have many small "rites" that don't communicate the stark transition between child and adult.

I do think we lose something.

Just my thoughts.

This sums it up for me too, couldn't say it better. The only real concrete transition from my childhood to adulthood was when I started working full time over the summers, and evenings and weekends while in High School. My father, saying (with only a touch of humor) that I was "depriving him of his rightful use of my labor" started charging me room and board.

 

[akennedy73]

I think I'm going to agree with this. The right of passage is artificial and serves only to reinforce a symbolic belief about maturity while it may have nothing to do with actual maturity. Being able to withstand pain says nothing about being able to contribute to society, love your wive and raise your children.

And I'll have to disagree - most cultural customs that seem strange are actually practical in the context of that culture's experience. The OP's post presents an example where parents are apparently risking their children's lives in order to seem them pass through a rite of adulthood. I doubt any parent, regardless of culture, would do so without good reasons. My guess is that the culture in question led a fairly marginal existence - any weak members would risk the entire tribe's survival. By performing their own "natural selection" they assured that their tribe would be strong going forward.

But back to the OP's post, that sort of thing shouldn't be romanticized - at least I don't find the thought of leading such a marginal existence that it's necessary to remove weaker members from entering adulthood very romantic. Gimme a grocery store and a SUV any day over having to watch my children go through a rite of passage that they may not survive.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

My thinking on this topic is that I teach 'adults' every day. They come in to me at 18.

Here is what they face:

1) They can drive but can't drink.
2) They can go to war - but can't rent a car by themselves.
3) They can have sex - but if they stick with their girlfriend that is one year younger than them - it is illegal.
4) They are expected to 'act like adults' but at 18 - are still treated like children (authority figures such as police officers act VERY differently to an 18 year old person and a 25 year old).

Because of this limbo status - when I ask (and I do every semester) if they feel like an adult - many of them do not think so. The odd thing is that most of my later 20's students do not feel like an adult either.

The reality is this - Morality is NOT Legality - and vice versa.

We might LEGALLY treat them like an adult - but morally we marginalize them or treat them very differently than we do older folks. They know it - and act accordingly.

The advantage the cultures have with a FIRM adult making ceremony is that all they need to do is show their marks of adulthood - or recall the ceremony they went through and no one continues to treat them like a kid.

I think we have dozens of legal processes but for main stream American and Western culture - there is no firm date and thus we have a bunch of 'adults' acting like kids.

This is just my two pennies.

TF

 

[TLR]

I don't believe that a rite of passage needs to be a "survive or die" situation. The greater context of the transition is that it is concrete and meaningful and marks a very distinct transition into a set of responsibilities and roles that are defined.

I believe what we miss today is an understanding of what the role and responsibilities in life as an adult are, as well as when you are expected to take them on. There are also few consequences to not living up to them but again that may be for another thread and day.

This is what in my opinion is leading to a weakening of society and is why I think these rites are important today. The actual rite itself is in some respects inconsequential as long as it is something not easily attainable and meaningful.

 

[Shotgun]

I'm really surprised with all the cracking down the moderators are doing that this thread hasn't been moved yet. This has nothing to do with W&SS.

 

[shecky]

While respecting your opinion I disagree.

I think however that the point I disagree with isn't necessarily your post but what it represents. You are right in that our culture "allows" for people to (for lack of a better way of putting it) turn on and off the responsibilities of adulthood like a switch. Rome suffered under this same delusion although that's for another time and post.

Being able to turn on and turn off responsibilities is the fruit of freedom. This is very much a a great advance of the American experiment, not being a slave to your past and being able to determine one's future.

The Rome comparison, like almost any casual Rome comparison, seems overly grandiose. As if Romans didn't have their own rites of passage that were culturally determined. In fact, proper Roman society was fairly strictly defined and nothing like the individual ideal Americans tend to hold. Furthermore, the foreboding nature of the Roman comparison, seemingly predicting the eminent and predetermined fall of modern American society conveniently forgets that Rome lasted a hell of a lot longer than the US has lasted. Clearly,at least for the times, they did something right.

Most simpler cultures have very defined roles and responsibilities that constitute adulthood and you can't simply turn them off. The only reason that we can at this point is because of our wealth and amazing amount of food/food distribution. For these simpler cultures adulthood is a marked and distinct transition and you can't just quit. As our culture has become more "leisure oriented" and created more and more safety nets to take care of people who don't want to live up to their responsibilities (long term) the transition between child and adulthood (aka - adolescence) has become murkier and less defined. Hence people no longer have a marked transition and the "rites of passage" become less important and less defined themselves.

IMO this is a great loss and like riddleofsteel I feel that (like Rome) it is one of the things leading to the degradation of men (and women) in our society and culture.

I see no increase of degradation of men or women in our modern society. Quite the contrary. We've freed ourselves of the necessity of formal rites of passage. Those things often developed because people were at the strict mercy of their environment and geology. Modern peoples are much less dependent on the growing seasons and the social status quo to prosper. This is a great freedom to take advantage of, and celebrate, not lament.

The neat thing is that we are free to take part in any rite of passage as we deem fit. Had we lived in a different culture, and/or centuries ago, we would not have that luxury of choice. Our freedoms would have been much more limited by the world around us. These rites of passage would have been better described as shackles of a cruel world rather laudable rituals of identity. And in this modern world, we can adopt or reject whatever rites of passage at leisure. Our ancestors had much less freedom to do so, even if the rites of passage were wasteful, irrelevant, and even harmful. Those choices were made for you.

I contend that we're better off without them at all. Vestigial rites of passage seem to give some folks here some warm fuzzy feelings, some kind of made up link to their past. But that's a freedom we can enjoy or discard as we see fit. And we can enjoy them precisely because we can discard them. And when we can discard them, what remains is pomp and circumstance. Ritual for the sake of ritual. Something that really goes against the grain of my personality.

 

[shecky]

The lack of a tangible rite of passage is, IMHO, a major social stumbling block for modern men in our society.

As for my son; he grew up using knives, firearms, hunting, fishing, and camping under my supervision. I can clearly remember the day we bought him his first hunting license, getting his driving license, launching and driving the boat for the first time, ect, ect.

His rite of passage was the day he left our driveway in his old Jeep Cherokee with a Scanoe on top, camping and hunting gear inside. He planned the trip and packed all his own gear. I might add that the loaded his own cartridges he hunted with.

As he left the driveway I admit to wiping a tear. Not a tear of sadness but a tear of pride.

Your post highlights an odd thing I see when this kind of topic comes up. It's rarely people come out and say, "I've been deprived, I've had a stumbling block because I didn't have a rite of passage." Instead, it's more often, "Everyone else is deprived, because they don't share the same value for rites of passage as I do." In other words, "They don't share my values, and that's a bad thing for Our Society."

Let's face it, that's a fairly arrogant reading of one's own opinion. I'll tell you what. Why don't you hand over your descendants to my care, and I'll determine which rites of passage will be good for them? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Additionally, this "stumbling block" you refer to seems pretty elusive to me. As broken as many things are today, modern American society is in fact incredibly fruitful and offers levels of prosperity never before seen on the planet for the most amount of people ever. I'm pretty sure if you were to go up to the average person and declare they had been deprived because of this stumbling block, they'd probably appreciate your concern, but assure you they are perfectly able to run their own lives as they see fit.

 

[vladdracul]

In my country (Romania) you ware considerated a man after finishing the mandatory (untill a few years ago) military service .

 

[barrabas74]

My thinking on this topic is that I teach 'adults' every day. They come in to me at 18.

Here is what they face:

1) They can drive but can't drink.
2) They can go to war - but can't rent a car by themselves.
3) They can have sex - but if they stick with their girlfriend that is one year younger than them - it is illegal.
4) They are expected to 'act like adults' but at 18 - are still treated like children (authority figures such as police officers act VERY differently to an 18 year old person and a 25 year old).

Because of this limbo status - when I ask (and I do every semester) if they feel like an adult - many of them do not think so. The odd thing is that most of my later 20's students do not feel like an adult either.

The reality is this - Morality is NOT Legality - and vice versa.

We might LEGALLY treat them like an adult - but morally we marginalize them or treat them very differently than we do older folks. They know it - and act accordingly.

The advantage the cultures have with a FIRM adult making ceremony is that all they need to do is show their marks of adulthood - or recall the ceremony they went through and no one continues to treat them like a kid.

I think we have dozens of legal processes but for main stream American and Western culture - there is no firm date and thus we have a bunch of 'adults' acting like kids.

This is just my two pennies.

TF

Talfuchre those answers are very much on young peoples minds. I had those same questions at 18.

The big one that stuck with me was this. At 18 I can not only drive (wielding a several ton piece of machinery that if improperly used could easily kill me and many others), I can vote, I can even join the military and lead other men into battle with the responsibility of not only my own life but the lives of others with weapons ranging from small arms to artilery. But I cannot purchase a pistol (age 21) even though I am issued one and fully capable of safely using it (safer than most who purchase handguns). Also I cannot be entrusted with even a beer (age 21) as I am apparently mature enough to engage the enemy but not responsible enough to drink alcohol. I can smoke all day long but I cant have a cold beer to cool down at the end of the day for another 3 years. Of all the things that just smacks of BS.....this one just never seems to settle within me. I am not even touching on the sex or other stuff.

As for rights of passage. Most of my friends just saw it like others posted...graduation etc. To each there own I guess. My family had there "rights of passage" so to speak. My father entrusting me with a knife. Teaching me to shoot, to hunt, to work the farm, drive the tractor (very young..I drove trucks on the farm at a young age as well)

The one that sticks out in my mind besides graduations and licenses and all the other stuff was my first day of deer season in PA. You couldnt go until you were 12 years old. I had hunted with my father in MD and KY much younger but never alone. That first day was the first time I walked alone with a rifle to my hunting stand and he walked another. My mother said he cried on the way up the hill with her when I branched off. It sort of marked my Teen's so to speak and my independance which just kept growing from then on.

My first deer taken was also a bit of a milestone. As taking of a life and taking responsibility for that life hit me. I had killed squirrels, rabbits and fish before but something about that first deer always stuck with me.



I will certainly agree though that many young people know they are legally adults but dont feel like adults. My friend lived with his parents until he was 28....TWENTY EIGHT. It really had an affect on him, he had a degree and a job but it wasnt good enough to let him live on his own. He eventually got a job that allowed him to get out but I remember how depressed he was all the time as really how could he find a date, let alone a wife while 28 and still in his parents house. At least that's how he told me he felt.

 

[hollowdweller]

First let me say that I grew up in a total liberal household and am basically a left winger mostly.

I think it USED to be that when you got your license, or got your first job, or graduated HS, or went hunting or hiking by yourself meant something.

When I was a kid my parents sort of with each of the above sort of gave me more responsibility.

These days I know kids 20 years old never got their license. Their parents drive them around. I know kids with thousands of dollars in student loans and degrees living at home because they don't consider it shameful to still be living with mommy and daddy at 30.

We have more of a youth culture now. Used to be everybody wanted to be an adult. Now all the adults want to be kids. And it shows in their kids.

I was talking to my God Daughter the other day. The town she goes to college in just implemented a 1% occupation tax for people working in the city. They also implemented a sales tax. This replaced a city "user fee".

At the same time the city cut the B&O tax and capped the occupation tax for those earning over 125,000 a year.

I was bitching that while I felt the city had a right to raise the tax that by capping the occupation tax and eliminating the B and 0 tax. the city was siding with the wealthy over the workers.

She said she didn't have any trouble with the tax. Of course she's 21, has never got her drivers, goes to school totally on grants and loans and in all the time she's been in college or even HS she never had a summer job. Yet wants to be accepted as an adult?

I grew up so much where the litmus test for adulthood was increasing responsibility and self sufficiency. Nowdays that is apparently outdated

OK Rant over.:thumbup:

 

[Mistwalker]

I'm thinking maybe the first real rite of passage for me was my father feeling like he had taught me well enough to put a loaded gun in my hands and take me to the woods hunting with him and my older brother when I was six. But it also came in stages, such as the first trip I successfully brought home game, and then a year later when I was allowed to take the heavy .410 I had been "issued" and hit the woods behind the hollow we lived in all by myself on weekends when he had to work or on school holidays. Personally I saw each new type of game I was able to kill as a rite of passage...first were the squirrels as they were the easiest being for the most part up high, then rabbits, then deer (with slugs), then quail, It wasn't until I was 14 that I got my first rifle, a Marlin 30-30 and I definitely saw being trusted with that as a rite of passage. I'll never forget the first time I was able to hit ducks in the air when I was 14 after several unsuccessful tries. They were small teals but dad made a big pan of ducks and dressing with them and to this day that is still one of the most meaningful meals of my life.

There was a serious rite of passage that lasted almost four years from age 15 to age 19...but I don't think I've reached the point of just being able to type all that out on the net just yet...maybe someday.

 

[TLR]

Being able to turn on and turn off responsibilities is the fruit of freedom. This is very much a a great advance of the American experiment, not being a slave to your past and being able to determine one's future.

We'll just have to accept that we have very different definitions of freedom.

The Rome comparison, like almost any casual Rome comparison, seems overly grandiose. As if Romans didn't have their own rites of passage that were culturally determined. In fact, proper Roman society was fairly strictly defined and nothing like the individual ideal Americans tend to hold. Furthermore, the foreboding nature of the Roman comparison, seemingly predicting the eminent and predetermined fall of modern American society conveniently forgets that Rome lasted a hell of a lot longer than the US has lasted. Clearly,at least for the times, they did something right.

I probably erred in leaving that Rome comment as vague as I did however in the context and point of history that I meant it I still believe it to be true. Suffice it to say that I am speaking of Rome as the city of Rome and not the entire empire (including every people group included in it) and at a very specific point where history pretty clearly reveals that excess became the norm and leisure and politics became the primary pursuits of the people.

I see no increase of degradation of men or women in our modern society.

Again we obviously are coming at this from very different starting points. I do.

Quite the contrary. We've freed ourselves of the necessity of formal rites of passage. Those things often developed because people were at the strict mercy of their environment and geology. Modern peoples are much less dependent on the growing seasons and the social status quo to prosper. This is a great freedom to take advantage of, and celebrate, not lament.

The neat thing is that we are free to take part in any rite of passage as we deem fit. Had we lived in a different culture, and/or centuries ago, we would not have that luxury of choice. Our freedoms would have been much more limited by the world around us. These rites of passage would have been better described as shackles of a cruel world rather laudable rituals of identity. And in this modern world, we can adopt or reject whatever rites of passage at leisure. Our ancestors had much less freedom to do so, even if the rites of passage were wasteful, irrelevant, and even harmful. Those choices were made for you.

I contend that we're better off without them at all. Vestigial rites of passage seem to give some folks here some warm fuzzy feelings, some kind of made up link to their past. But that's a freedom we can enjoy or discard as we see fit. And we can enjoy them precisely because we can discard them. And when we can discard them, what remains is pomp and circumstance. Ritual for the sake of ritual. Something that really goes against the grain of my personality.

Your views are your prerogative

 

[Diomedes Industries]

I'm really surprised with all the cracking down the moderators are doing that this thread hasn't been moved yet. This has nothing to do with W&SS.

I think this to be wrong - my first thread was about surviving the initiation rite - and most indigenous rites were taught in and around the bush. It might be slightly tangential - but where else WOULD you put it?

I think it is in the right spot.

TF

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Being able to turn on and turn off responsibilities is the fruit of freedom.

I think this is wrong. You can never ethically turn off your responsibilities. A responsibility is what you SHOULD do. You don't have to, but you can. I don't see this as a fruit - but an unfortunate side effect.

You can put yourself stupidly in debt, have it all be your fault, pull the pin on that debt and claim bankruptcy. It is, at that point, shirking what you have made yourself responsible for. This is not to say that all bankruptcy is like that - but some is. Some people even PLAN to go bankrupt.

You can have kids and not take care of them - and so on. This is what freedom allows, but is not a 'fruit' in the positive sense. I think HollowDweller makes a good point. Doing what you are supposed to do even when it sucks is part of being an adult - and I think we, as a culture in America, do not do a firm job of telling our youth when that time will be OR prepare them for it. We do this, in part, by not having firm steps to adulthood.

Please take nothing personal from this - just my two pennies - I am sure we can talk about it further.


TF

 

[TLR]

I think this is wrong. You can never ethically turn off your responsibilities. A responsibility is what you SHOULD do. You don't have to, but you can. I don't see this as a fruit - but an unfortunate side effect.

You can put yourself stupidly in debt, have it all be your fault, pull the pin on that debt and claim bankruptcy. It is, at that point, shirking what you have made yourself responsible for. This is not to say that all bankruptcy is like that - but some is. Some people even PLAN to go bankrupt.

You can have kids and not take care of them - and so on. This is what freedom allows, but is not a 'fruit' in the positive sense. I think HollowDweller makes a good point. Doing what you are supposed to do even when it sucks is part of being an adult - and I think we, as a culture in America, do not do a firm job of telling our youth when that time will be OR prepare them for it. We do this, in part, by not having firm steps to adulthood.

Please take nothing personal from this - just my two pennies - I am sure we can talk about it further.


TF

Well said TF.

Without trying to make things personal this is one of the indicators that I believe reveals the degradation of men and women in our society that I was speaking of.

I did a lot of work with elementary, middle and high school students for a time in Florida and it was very common for their parents (kids of 9,10,11,12,13...) to go have fun with their friends for the weekend (turn off parenting responsibilities) and leave their kids at home for 2-3 days with $50 for food otherwise unsupervised. Please understand that these were well paid middle-class to upper-middle-class parents and this was very normal. I'm not cherry-picking one family or one instance.

In my opinion that was not freedom but irresponsibility and I dealt with much of the fall out and damage from this lifestyle. Responsibilities are not meant to be turned off for convenience sake. That is not true freedom in my opinion it is a perversion of it. I don't think that any of our founding fathers would have ever used that as a definition of the freedom they desired for the "American experiment."

This leads to what I was trying to communicate earlier. I really believe that because we have muddied many of the expectations that we have for defining adulthood and when that should happen we are putting are young people in a position to not know what responsibilities to take on when. This is at the heart of a rite of passage.

Again not trying to have a go at you shecky we just have some very different starting points which lead to very different conclusions.

 

[Shotgun]

I think this to be wrong - my first thread was about surviving the initiation rite - and most indigenous rites were taught in and around the bush. It might be slightly tangential - but where else WOULD you put it?

I think it is in the right spot.

TF

The community center is where I would put it. Your asking questions about society and the role of initiation rights within those societies. I don't care that it's here, just surprised it hasn't been moved. I've seen other threads that were moved that were more relevant to W&SS then this thread.

 

[TLR]

I'm actually glad that it's here as the discussion has remained much more civil than it would have in community center.

I do think that this is relevant to any forum discussing wilderness and survival as in passing on our knowledge there will always be times to create specific points of achievement that could very easily be considered rites of passage.

 

[killstew]

Most people in society would say that is a good thing. You know that whole concept of world peace and stuff

[Youtube]dfU17niXOG8 [/Youtube]

Sadly you're correct. People these day don't understand the need for a warrior class. Don't get me wrong the "idea" of world peace is a great concept. However usually peace comes with someone on the loosing end & so long as it's not you then that's great.

 

[Stray Round]

Interesting topic.

I think our society is much poorer for not having a clear demarcation between childhood and adulthood. So many in our present society desire to stay in the infant stage where someone else must lead them by the hand so that they can shirk responsibility and accountability. Perhaps a ritual to push us into the adult world and give us a quick kick in the seat of the pants just might do a lot of people some good.

On ritual that most boys had in my generation was to be given a rifle or shotgun and introduced into the world of men and opened our eyes to life and death and accountability for our actions and the power that goes with being a man.


I think many of us that play with sharp and pointy toys and things that go bang are performing rituals that give us a sense of independence and power over our world and in a sense proves our "adulthood."