Rough profiling stone recommendations

6

651bobby

Joined
Sep 5, 2008
Messages
22
Hi,

I have a bunch of King stones in various grits, 240, 1000 & 6000.

I've had really good success touching up knives with these however I really struggle when the knife is pretty dinged up to start with or the profiles are janky.

I want to buy an even course fast cutting stone to just establish the angles and even rapidly remove material to clean up an edge (I sharpen wood working tools like Chisels, plane irons & axes too - and they sometimes require me to remove a lot of material before they are ready for polishing grits).

Until now I've been using the 240 grit to do this but it takes ages and as a result it's also started to go concave and it now transfers that imperfection onto certain types of edge - especially plane irons.

What I want is a rough cutting stone that will stay flat for a long time to get that initial angle, then I'll just polish it out with my existing stones.

Extra points for something that I could even use to "flatten" my existing King Stones.

I think I need something like a Diamond sharpening stone, but I am not sure which brands are suitable for my needs.

Can anyone here recommend anything suitable for my needs.

Cheers.
 
You're almost exactly describing the DMT XXC, Atoma 140, and CKTG flattening plate. I only have direct experience with the DMT XXC. It's a beast. Eats steel really nicely so you can reset bevels and get your bevel "shaping" done pretty quickly. It's also supposed to be good for flattening. I've only used mine for flattening a few times. I'm not very good at it.

The Atoma has a great reputation, but it's a bit expensive. Jason B didn't seem to like his after a while (I think he said it wore out fast?), but other people seem to love them. The CKTG 140 plate is a bargain, and is supposed to work quite well. I don't think it's nearly as flat as the Atoma or DMT, but it's PLENTY flat enough to flatten a waterstone. People seem to like it too.

Good luck.

Brian.
 
willc said:
For a rough stone you can’t beat the CKTG 140 diamond or the Baryonyx Manticore and American Mutt.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately none of those seem to be easily available to purchase where I live - which is shame because the CKTG looks very reasonable price.
 
bgentry said:
You're almost exactly describing the DMT XXC, Atoma 140, and CKTG flattening plate. I only have direct experience with the DMT XXC. It's a beast. Eats steel really nicely so you can reset bevels and get your bevel "shaping" done pretty quickly. It's also supposed to be good for flattening. I've only used mine for flattening a few times. I'm not very good at it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response.

Normally the CKTG would be a no brainer but it doesn't look as though it's easy to purchase here. I can get the Atoma and the DMT - although the DMT is quite expensive (more expensive than my other stones combined!).

Will a Diamond stone like the DMT last a long time, even if I use it to flatten other stones. If so I think I can probably shoot for it.
 
I do not recommend using the same diamond plate for flattening as well as rough sharpening (shaping) because flattening stones seems to diminish the aggression of a diamond plate. I now use loose silicon carbide grit on a granite floor tile and it works better for me.

How often do you anticipate using the coarse stone? For limited work (and not stone flattening) you may wish to try "3M Pro Grade Precision paper with Cubitron II Grit." It's surprisingly effective, but not economical if you go through a lot of it.
 
The DMT XXC has very strong bonds with the diamonds, unlike their other plates. The XXC is "tough" and can take a good bit of pressure. Which means it will stay very effective for sharpening. However, like Mr. Wizard, I have heard that using it for a flattening plate can make it "less sharp" and less effective at sharpening. I've only used my XXC for flattening 2 or 3 times total. It still works very well for sharpening.

I own some waterstones, but I don't claim very much expertise. That said, there's a kind of flattening stone that's really thick with big slots cut into it. Do a web search for Naniwa Flattening Stone and you'll see an example of what I'm talking about. Those kinds of flatteners seem reasonably priced and popular. I have never used one. I'm just giving you a pointer so you can do additional research.

Good luck to you!

Brian.
 
Mr.Wizard said:
I do not recommend using the same diamond plate for flattening as well as rough sharpening (shaping) because flattening stones seems to diminish the aggression of a diamond plate. I now use loose silicon carbide grit on a granite floor tile and it works better for me.

How often do you anticipate using the coarse stone? For limited work (and not stone flattening) you may wish to try "3M Pro Grade Precision paper with Cubitron II Grit." It's surprisingly effective, but not economical if you go through a lot of it.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, so what do you do, double side it to tile or float glass or something like that?

I've tried that before and probably less premium abrasive and it ended ripping up pretty quick. And before long I was in a lot of mess and my stone wasn't much flatter. Do you use water or oil with that abrasive or just use it dry?

That certainly seems like a lower cost solution.
 
I was not recommending sandpaper for flattening stones; it fails terribly on harder stones. Rather I was recommending the 3M Pro Grade Precision paper as a coarse stone substitute for occasional use. It cuts quite well, lasts significantly longer than the black Wetordry paper, and has a nonslip backing that lets me use it without tape or spray adhesive—a bit of water keeps it stuck flat on the back of granite tile. If you don't like it it is not an expensive experiment.

For flattening stones I recommend loose silicon carbide grit which works with all types of stones hard or soft. However for softer, finer stones like the King 1000 and 6000 you can probably just use coarse drywall sanding screen with plenty of water. (It works well on my King 1200.)

From a long thread on stone flattening: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/lapping-stones-for-flatness.1586470/
Diemaker said:
Once you try lapping with loose abrasive you will understand. It is something words alone can not convey. You don't need very many grit sizes since as eKretz said it will break down into smaller grits as you use it. This is how a manufacturer does it, they start with a single grit feed stock, grind it down and separate it into the different grits they sell.
Click to expand...
 
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651bobby said:
Unfortunately none of those seem to be easily available to purchase where I live - which is shame because the CKTG looks very reasonable price.
Click to expand...

The DMT course or the 140 Atoma probably are your best bets then but both of them are more expensive than my original suggestions.

If you can find a decent course SiC stone locally they are great to reprofile with as long as you don’t let it become glazed.
I condition my SiC stones with 30 grit SiC powder.
 
I can’t speak to its ability flatten other stones ( FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades might know more about it), but the Baryonyx Manticore eats steel like a ravenous hyena and is very slow to dish. It cuts way faster than the DMT coarse (blue, 325 grit), but obviously that may not hold true with the XC or XXC (which I don’t have). The Baryonyx American Mutt is also very fast, and extremely slow wearing, but it requires substantial grinding pressure to keep the grit refreshed.
 
Ok I've done some more research based on the suggestions here.

I think that the Atoma 140 would be a good investment for me.

The conclusion that are drawn in this video basically summarises how I want to use this stone:


Thanks everyone for your input.
 
I would also recommend the manticore. While I have only used mine 3 times so far it put an edge on an axe that I bought from Lowe’s that no mater how much tome I spent with a bastard file it would not take off enough metal to hold an edge. My son spent 10 minutes on it and now very sharp. It hoped off the metal that was damaged by the factory grinding .
 
I'd get the manticore considering its price point, but is simply is not trivially available in the UK and I don't really fancy importing anything in the current world situation.
 
651bobby, I also highly recommend the 60 grit Baryonyx Manticore, although it looks like you have your reasons for not buying one (or more, considering the good price) at this time.

I've tried hogging off metal with abrasives around 120 grit, including diamond, and they were too slow for me. Taking more time than I need to grind away knife metal isn't one of my favorite things to do. Usually instructions for diamond plates say to use light pressure, which I found counter-productive to removing metal as quickly as possible freehand. I tried using heavier pressure on a 120 grit diamond plate and wasn't impressed with that, either.

I can use more pressure with the Manticore than with diamonds and it removes metal much faster than the standard "coarse" grits of around 100-140. I like and use stones in that range, just not for hogging off metal quickly.

You might also do a search for reviews of other low grit abrasives such as sandpaper and emery cloth, as Mr.Wizard mentioned. I've used them before I learned about the Manticore, but not enough to give a recommendation.
 
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I use a DMT Diasharp Extra Coarse (220 grit) for re-profiling. While DMTs are expensive, they last a long time -- I've had my fine/ultra fine DMTs for over two decades and they still work as effectively as when new. (I clean them with BreakFree CLP when they start to load up.) You can get them on-line (like a lot of stuff these days, it seems:D).
 
MtnHawk1 said:
651bobby, I also highly recommend the 60 grit Baryonyx Manticore, although it looks like you have your reasons for not buying one (or more, considering the good price) at this time.

I've tried hogging off metal with abrasives around 120 grit, including diamond, and they were too slow for me. Taking more time than I need to grind away knife metal isn't one of my favorite things to do. Usually instructions for diamond plates say to use light pressure, which I found counter-productive to removing metal as quickly as possible freehand. I tried using heavier pressure on a 120 grit diamond plate and wasn't impressed with that, either.

I can use more pressure with the Manticore than with diamonds and it removes metal much faster than the standard "coarse" grits of around 100-140. I like and use stones in that range, just not for hogging off metal quickly.

You might also do a search for reviews of other low grit abrasives such as sandpaper and emery cloth, as Mr.Wizard mentioned. I've used them before I learned about the Manticore, but not enough to give a recommendation.
Click to expand...

Coarse sandpapers will mostly end up obliterating themselves when used on steel, but emery cloth will generally hold up well. The difficulty is usually in keeping the stuff flat, as it's more prone to curling up and creating a "cushion" effect than paper is.
 
If you're set on getting a diamond plate the Atoma 140 is known as one of the best. I haven't used it as it's just too expensive for me.

However I have used diamond plates to flatten stones, and I still recommend loose silicon carbide grit as superior. Many stones perform better when conditioned on loose grit. If I can convince you to go this route then for a working coarse stone available in the UK please see this recent thread: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/best-sic-available-in-uk.1723294/
 
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