Running out of bevel!

Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
263
I'm quite good at sharpening and maintaining edges but the bevel on my caly 3.5 has almost become non existant so there's basically no edge left to sharpen and I can't get it as sharp as I like to. I don't have a grinder. just a dremel. I'm not taking a dremel to my caly.



 
Not sure what you're saying. How can you "run out of bevel"? You create a new bevel each time you sharpen, unless you're just sharpening a "micro bevel".
You don't need a grinder to create a new edge, just a sharpening stone.
 
Have you been changing the angle each time you sharpen? And the edge is more and more obtuse? You don't want to do that. Keep the sharpening abrasive at the same angle every time you sharpen and the bevel is always there.
 
The only way to run out of bevel is to run out of blade.
Change your sharpening angles.
 
It looks to me like this knife has been sharpened at higher angles then the factory bevel was set.

What bevel that's left is quite obtuse, I'm not surprised that it is performing poorly.

The edge will have to be re-set to a more acute angle, and that angle should be maintained in subsequent sharpenings.

If you are not capable to fix the bevel, have Spyderco do it for you.

Just on knife users opinion.



Big Mike
 
Don't use the dremel or a grinder, please.

You say your quite good at sharpening, what tools are you using to sharpen with?

As others have said you need to drop the angle your sharpening at and keep it consistent. The edge in the pic looks like it will take some time to fix up but is definitely doable.
 
Where are you located? Chances are there's a knife nut in the area with a sharpening setup that would be open to help! :thumbup::)
 
When you sharpen, unless you're purposefully trying to put a secondary (e.g., micro) bevel on, you should be sharpening the entire bevel. What you've been doing is sharpening at a higher angle angle than the factory bevel, and as a result have been riding up the edge into thicker metal - my money says that you've been maintaining a sharp apex, but you've also been losing cutting ability because of the obtuse edge and the thickness behind it.

You need to take the time to grind in a proper bevel and then practice matching its angle every time you sharpen.
 
What everyone is saying is that if you kept the angle the same, not only would the edge come back a touch when sharpening, but the top of the vevel would have moved just as far back. In essence, all you are doing while sharpening is moving the Whole bevel further into knife blade.

What we believe you were doing was sharpening just the leading edge and therefore increasing bevel angle and lessening the bevel height. Did you notice if the edge took longer to dull out from what you considered sharp the longer you have owned the knife? If so, thats why...

Edit: I just read Calcs post and it is quite similar to what I was saying.
 
Well, at least you're not dealing with the opposite mess. :barf::foot:;)

Much bevel, no thank you.

P1030071.jpg
 
I just read Calcs post and it is quite similar to what I was saying.

I think so.

Basically what's happening is this (please excuse the crude drawing):

1x2gKkq.png


When you remove metal at a higher angle than the bevel (sharpening action marked in red), you're putting on another bevel and moving the apex back into thicker material. Repeat this a few dozen times and, lo and behold, you've got a noticeable smaller bevel.

What you should be doing is this:

2JRsTBi.png


Matching the bevel angle will keep it even.

Now, you may be asking yourself, it still removes metal (receding from the green line), and it still moves back into thicker material... so why is this better? Two reasons:

- You retain the same bevel angle, i.e., the hypotenuse of the triangle, so your bevel will not shrink.
- This means that the thickness behind the apex remains a smooth transition at a more acute angle (for a while, until you actually do recede so far into thicker material that you have to thin out the profile).
- Acute angles cut better than obtuse angles, and generally will have longer lifespans as long as material failure (e.g., chipping) doesn't occur since obtuse angles dulling will essentially recede into thicker material quicker, therefore reducing cutting ability.

A quick drawing to show this, as the green line through a more obtuse edge and a more acute edge represents the same level of recession into thicker/thinner material, respectively:

ZP6TKfD.png


T1 is larger than T2 at the same distance away from their respective apexes.

So also relevant to your specific scenario, because obtuse angles will have shorter lifespans, you're probably sharpening more often to counteract this loss of cutting ability, thereby accelerating this whole process and prematurely grinding down the bevel.

To counteract this, use the sharpie trick. Draw on the edge bevel and make a couple passes on the stones. If you examine the remaining markings, you can tell a couple interesting things (sorry, not my picture and I can't remember where I saw it):

Gh2JZGq.png


- The red ink is what you were doing: using too high an angle and, as a result, only removing metal (and the ink) closer to the apex.
- The opposite of this is the green ink: using too low an angle and, as a result, only removing metal (and the ink) closer to the shoulder of the bevel.
- Instead, you should be removing ink from the entire bevel, so after a couple passes, the ink should be completely removed from the bevel.

And, of course, I should make a quick clarification that the actual size of the bevel shouldn't be taken at face value. You can more simply think of it - as I mentioned before - as the hypotenuse of a right angle triangle, so it of course follows that a bevel will appear larger on a thicker blade that it would on a thinner blade, and the opposite is true as well.

So let's take the following drawing as an example of how blade geometry affects how we look at sharpening and the size of the bevel:

39D6RQY.png


These two bevels are on two different blades, the top being thicker and the bottom being thinner. Now, the heights (H1 and H2) are equal. However, being from a thinner blade, W2 is smaller than W1. Therefore, using the Pythagorean theorem (a^2 + b^2 = c^2), B1 ("B" for "bevel") is larger than B2. If we want the bevels to be the same size, we could also look at using SIN/COS/TAN trigonometry. If we wanted the bevels to be the same size, we'd have to reduce H1 in order to reduce B1, which would decrease the angle between B1 and W1, i.e., making the edge more obtuse.

We can go on and on about that sort of stuff, but you get the picture.

If anybody else catches any mistakes, please feel free to correct them; I rushed through this a bit and will review it later to make sure I'm making sense.
 
Last edited:
Dan, all you need to do to achieve what everyone is saying here is bring your spine closer to your sharpening medium. Are you working with diamonds, ceramics, etc?
 
I have several ceramic stones and this knife would take on a very sharp edge. I sharpen freehand. Now I can't even get it sharp at all. I guess I will send it to spyderco. I live in denver. I hate sending anything away for service. (guns, knives, parts, electronics, etc) This is just my sunday knife haha. Dang it though. Unless I can take it somewhere to put a new edge on it while I wait. Anyone? I live in north denver near thornton.
 
Best option I guess would be send it to spyderco, you are within the same state. That or start rebeveling your blade, it's really not to hard and shouldn't take up much of your time, maybe 30-40 minutes for that max. There's a couple solid guys around here that can have that back to you so sharp you only need to point it at things.
 
Back
Top