I'm more and more becoming of the belief that the spur was built-in by reputable makers as a visible indicator/reminder to customers of that era that the head was actually made of expensive steel and not common wrought iron.
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Russian (Topor) pattern
- Thread starter Agent_H
- Start date
I'm more and more becoming of the belief that the spur was built-in by reputable makers as a visible indicator/reminder to customers of that era that the head was actually made of expensive steel and not common wrought iron.
Square_peg
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That's just for definition in the drawing.
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Thanks for sharing your hatchet. It is very interesting to see axes and hatchets from other parts of the world. These offer a different perspective.
One thing I was curious about was the shape of the eye in a tonop head. It is not explicit in the drawing posted from the rusknife site (in post #15). Straight, Taper (which way), hourglass?
BTW, excellent workmanship on the cross wedge.
Bob
EDIT to add:
Found this drawing on page one post #5 in the rusknife site thread posted:
In the bottom right view the eye looks tapered bottom (larger) to top (smaller). While the top view seems to indicate straight.
Thanks Bob and everyone. You know, I think the two I have handled are tapered like a conventional eye but maybe a little less noticeably so.
http://rusknife.com/ and the http://bushcraftru.com sites are interesting to explore if you can be patient with translations.
I notice a "Jake Pogg" presence all over now that I am paying attention as well
That handle keeps soaking up BLO like a sponge. Thinking it might be a candidate for a nap in my ammo can/oil deal to see if it makes a difference. I don't plan to rehandle it any time soon and I want to use it as the tool it is.
Here's another shot of the bit/edge.
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It's hard to speak in any generalised way of the handling of russian axes...Over the incredible,continuous historical dysfunction of the last 100+ years the traditions of craftsmanship have suffered greatly.
Many axes made in the last few decades were punched/drifted ANY which way....Taper up,taper down...Most commonly a single taper towards the top of the eye.
The axe was seated against whatever convenient bulge in the haft,wedged,after the next rain re-wedged,et c...
To this day many in the Old Country practice handling of axes with the haft wrapped in layers of epoxy-saturated cheese-cloth....(to make up for all the complex topography inside the eye........Actually,i think that it harkens back to those leather-gasketed compression hafts of VERY long ago...
I've also talked to people who judge the axe by the ring of it,and even some who bury the axes for a few years to inbue them with magical properties ...
So,it's entirely up to the user,Bob,you could handle your topor any way youse likes!...A living tradition,as they say,still in the making
Many axes made in the last few decades were punched/drifted ANY which way....Taper up,taper down...Most commonly a single taper towards the top of the eye.
The axe was seated against whatever convenient bulge in the haft,wedged,after the next rain re-wedged,et c...
To this day many in the Old Country practice handling of axes with the haft wrapped in layers of epoxy-saturated cheese-cloth....(to make up for all the complex topography inside the eye....
....Actually,i think that it harkens back to those leather-gasketed compression hafts of VERY long ago...I've also talked to people who judge the axe by the ring of it,and even some who bury the axes for a few years to inbue them with magical properties ...
So,it's entirely up to the user,Bob,you could handle your topor any way youse likes!
...A living tradition,as they say,still in the makingBtw,Agent_H,you probably know by now that your axe is Not one of the crapulous,middle-late soviet-period ones....And was manufactured in a Much more sensible,consiencious manner.
It's almost definitely pre-Revolution(1917),and is either as we identified it from that old b&w chart,or a so-called Lesser Sapper(Engineers Corps) axe,(for search purposes:"Малый Саперный топор").
But,also,what it Can be is a Billness 40.3 (1928 catalog)....(just Maybe,if you looked Very close,are there Any remnants of letters/numbers?).
It's almost definitely pre-Revolution(1917),and is either as we identified it from that old b&w chart,or a so-called Lesser Sapper(Engineers Corps) axe,(for search purposes:"Малый Саперный топор").
But,also,what it Can be is a Billness 40.3 (1928 catalog)....(just Maybe,if you looked Very close,are there Any remnants of letters/numbers?).
Birch CAN be a quite decent haft material.But,because it's softer than Hickory(or European Ash,Beech,et c.),it may require a differently shaped eye.
In Finland,Sweden,and Norway(to lesser extent),it resulted in a deep,conical eye,that distributes the pressure,not letting it to compress the wood fibers to the breaking point.
In Russia,the eye was forged with more volume,for the same reason(a poorer solution).
But that same softness also serves to absorb more shock than the harder woods tend to,and feels "warmer",and more secure in the hand,especially when wearing mittens...
In Finland,Sweden,and Norway(to lesser extent),it resulted in a deep,conical eye,that distributes the pressure,not letting it to compress the wood fibers to the breaking point.
In Russia,the eye was forged with more volume,for the same reason(a poorer solution).
But that same softness also serves to absorb more shock than the harder woods tend to,and feels "warmer",and more secure in the hand,especially when wearing mittens...
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Back around 2012, Harry Epstein's online tool store was selling a "Russian Axe" as "military surplus" for $20.
So a bunch of these are in the US now:
The axe head weighs 2 1/2 lbs. Cutting blade is 6" long. "1982" is stamped in the head.
(from the Wayback Machine)
So a bunch of these are in the US now:
The axe head weighs 2 1/2 lbs. Cutting blade is 6" long. "1982" is stamped in the head.
(from the Wayback Machine)
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I will look at it again with new eyes. It is a very solid but thin axe, it's also deeply/evenly pitted, right to the edge.
*Now understand your comment about it being treated as a single bevel tool.
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Great job
Agent_H
. It's allways a pleasure to see revived old tools.
There is something which stuns me every time I read about Russian axe pattern. Russia is a huge country with quite long history it has different climate zones, geographycally is very different and it has different cultures and way of lifes in it. How can it be only one axe pattern? I think there were more, much more patterns once upon a time. Does someone know about them.
Look at these old paintings. I have found some simmilar and some not as simmilar axe patterns in a quick search in them.
Agent_H
. It's allways a pleasure to see revived old tools.There is something which stuns me every time I read about Russian axe pattern. Russia is a huge country with quite long history it has different climate zones, geographycally is very different and it has different cultures and way of lifes in it. How can it be only one axe pattern? I think there were more, much more patterns once upon a time. Does someone know about them.
Look at these old paintings. I have found some simmilar and some not as simmilar axe patterns in a quick search in them.
Ugaldie,that is a VERY broad issue...I'm afraid that the first problem would be to define-what Is "Russia"?
(the book illustrations above are Entirely fancyful,i'm afraid,solely imaginary).
Our concept of Russia today is also ephemeral.For the most part it consists of what was known (by Europeans)as Moscovy,and centered around the Central Russian Plateau,a territory not so vast.
To the East,the Ural Range divided it from Asia(technically),and the many tribes and territories east of that the armed bands of moscovite troops have started making limited incursions into only beginning in 15th-16th c.c.Those tribes were Scythian,closer,and Turkic further east
To the West was the "original",Kievan Rus,a great rich agricultural plain known today as Ukraine,raided into and fought over for centuries,alternatively being ruled by Polish,Lithuanian,and Swedish kings and fiefdoms.
To the North was the Novgorod "Rus",inhabited by Ugric tribes and also warred upon by the Moscovites,but always being more influenced by Scandinavia,till finally and ruthlessly subjugated by Ivan the Terrible in the 1600's.
In 1240-ies Moscovy,and many of the outlying lands were taken over by the Mongol invaders,who ruled there for hundreds of years to come,(Ivan the Terrible being solidly their descendant)and Hugely influenced the politics and the very mores of the entire landscape.
So it is only in 1721 that the Russian Empire was pronounced to be That,and that is the concept that we tend to think of today when we say "Russia".
The Mongol rulers exercised the system of government that related closely to their semi-nomadic conquest style.
They weren't interested in Investing in the territories occupied by them,it was enough that the subjects survived at whatever level,just enough to pay the necessary tribute.
So the development of crafts,sciences,architecture et c. wasn't very high on their list.
(the book illustrations above are Entirely fancyful,i'm afraid,solely imaginary).
Our concept of Russia today is also ephemeral.For the most part it consists of what was known (by Europeans)as Moscovy,and centered around the Central Russian Plateau,a territory not so vast.
To the East,the Ural Range divided it from Asia(technically),and the many tribes and territories east of that the armed bands of moscovite troops have started making limited incursions into only beginning in 15th-16th c.c.Those tribes were Scythian,closer,and Turkic further east
To the West was the "original",Kievan Rus,a great rich agricultural plain known today as Ukraine,raided into and fought over for centuries,alternatively being ruled by Polish,Lithuanian,and Swedish kings and fiefdoms.
To the North was the Novgorod "Rus",inhabited by Ugric tribes and also warred upon by the Moscovites,but always being more influenced by Scandinavia,till finally and ruthlessly subjugated by Ivan the Terrible in the 1600's.
In 1240-ies Moscovy,and many of the outlying lands were taken over by the Mongol invaders,who ruled there for hundreds of years to come,(Ivan the Terrible being solidly their descendant)and Hugely influenced the politics and the very mores of the entire landscape.
So it is only in 1721 that the Russian Empire was pronounced to be That,and that is the concept that we tend to think of today when we say "Russia".
The Mongol rulers exercised the system of government that related closely to their semi-nomadic conquest style.
They weren't interested in Investing in the territories occupied by them,it was enough that the subjects survived at whatever level,just enough to pay the necessary tribute.
So the development of crafts,sciences,architecture et c. wasn't very high on their list.
So,there WERE a number of regional types of axes,in many of these outlying areas,and some of these survive to this day even...But you could hardly,in Any sense,call them remotely "russian".
In the south,for example,around Crymia,among the ethnic tartars,there was this distinct type of axes.But that area has had historically such a strong Greek andTurkish influence that it hardly ever comes up in such discussion.
Here's what those looked like:https://www.google.com/search?q=Кры...ab6NDYAhUFxmMKHWo3Db8QsAQINw&biw=1366&bih=610
Continuing clock-wise,into Ukraine,the lands were nearly treeless,peopled by an agrarian folks who,without charcoal or much iron ore,resorted to forging axes but rarely.And though my Ukrainian friends do distinguish one type of axe as distinctly Ukrainian,or Kievan Rus,it is so similar to the ones from further West that to the rest of the world such axes are known as "Baltic".
Her's an example of that:https://www.pinterest.com/pin/563372234619758453/
Continuing around into places that are now North-West and North of RF we run into axes that are virtually indistinguishable from Scandinavian finds...
Joseph Stalin,in an oppressive decree has forbidden the archaeologists of the time to ascribe any artefacts as stemming from corrupt and evil Western Europe....Those attempting to were labelled as "normanists" and ruthlessly persecuted.
That is a kind of philosophy stemming from that "absolute submission" type of governance inherited by Russian rulers from the Mongol Khanate.
And that is,in my opinion,why the regional types of tools have disappeared,And,even the evidence of their ever existing was being erased over time if at all inconvenient for the Propaganda...
In the south,for example,around Crymia,among the ethnic tartars,there was this distinct type of axes.But that area has had historically such a strong Greek andTurkish influence that it hardly ever comes up in such discussion.
Here's what those looked like:https://www.google.com/search?q=Кры...ab6NDYAhUFxmMKHWo3Db8QsAQINw&biw=1366&bih=610
Continuing clock-wise,into Ukraine,the lands were nearly treeless,peopled by an agrarian folks who,without charcoal or much iron ore,resorted to forging axes but rarely.And though my Ukrainian friends do distinguish one type of axe as distinctly Ukrainian,or Kievan Rus,it is so similar to the ones from further West that to the rest of the world such axes are known as "Baltic".
Her's an example of that:https://www.pinterest.com/pin/563372234619758453/
Continuing around into places that are now North-West and North of RF we run into axes that are virtually indistinguishable from Scandinavian finds...
Joseph Stalin,in an oppressive decree has forbidden the archaeologists of the time to ascribe any artefacts as stemming from corrupt and evil Western Europe....Those attempting to were labelled as "normanists" and ruthlessly persecuted.
That is a kind of philosophy stemming from that "absolute submission" type of governance inherited by Russian rulers from the Mongol Khanate.
And that is,in my opinion,why the regional types of tools have disappeared,And,even the evidence of their ever existing was being erased over time if at all inconvenient for the Propaganda...
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Great job
Thank you sir. To be honest, I used it as a learning process for the pattern in general. I get a kick out of axes as ethnography.
Back around 2012, Harry Epstein's online tool store was selling a "Russian Axe" as "military surplus" for $20.
So a bunch of these are in the US now:
The axe head weighs 2 1/2 lbs. Cutting blade is 6" long. "1982" is stamped in the head.
(from the Wayback Machine)
http://d1109175.u38.surftown.dk/images/Grathe Hede/Gratheoekserstore.jpg
Norway,Middle Ages...So even these axes held to be iconically Russian,are clearly derivative...
(The spur/"sprogget" also has an analog in old Norsk work,we discussed it elsewhere...).
I apologise for the confusing(and dreadfully worded)essay above.I guess my point in answer to Ugaldie would be:If you abuse and starve your serfs Too much,it doesn't do their creativity(tool design in this case) any favors.
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"State-Stifled innovation, Modern steel working and hardening processes, rigorous production volume/quality, yet Pride in manufacture." - Referring to the more "modern" incarnations of course.
What you end up with is an interesting axe representative of several eras of change.
*I like the handles on them as much if not more than the axes themselves.
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How is the fair haired fellow with the pipe holding that axe behind his back?Back of his arm against his leg ,ya think.
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Close and comfortable it “seams”
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Thank you
J
jake pogg
for your explanations. Are these days those axes and cultures being studied?
Look at the axe in the right, it looks like convergent evolution this time too. It looks like eficcient tools tend to be born in one unique place.
But what about Russian territory known as Moscovy? I think there have to be more patterns, at least one used to split wood.
Look at the axe in the right, it looks like convergent evolution this time too. It looks like eficcient tools tend to be born in one unique place.
But what about Russian territory known as Moscovy? I think there have to be more patterns, at least one used to split wood.
Why do you say this? Other tools and working methods look like correctly painted.
Maybe it be a squaring axe?Oh hey--check out that nice offset handle.
We are allways learning, this is the way to advance!
Ugaldie,i was born and grew up in Moscow,and have grown reading books much like these,and as good as the illustrators used to be(and they were excellent),they often didn't scruple to use their imagination...Personally,i don't recognise any of the axes pictured...
(Funny that being fluent in Russian i can't speak a word of Ukrainian,or Polish,or Serbian,or Any of the other Slavic language...(all of which can fairly easily understand one another).This right here tells a lot about how limited the Moscovy culture really was...
Yes sir,there Were other types of axes.Some were not massively different,but some were,indeed,fairly distinct.I'll try to find some good,representative photos.
As far as splitting goes,i believe that like in many other countries the use of saws by the poor peasants was not very common.Like that old English saying goes:"By hook or by crook",meaning that the landless peasantry were forbidden to cut any trees down,but were only allowed to gather the fallen branches,or the dead ones that they could pull down off the standing tree by a "crook".
So that they mostly burned small stuff.
Later,the last century or so,well into the Industrial age,there was a dedicated splitting-maul type axe(very crude and inconvenient to use to this day).
Wood was processed mostly by axe,and split by a warn out one,and then split further as necessary by a so-called "soven",a very thick/long knife-like object with a socket-like handle(like an unhandled British bill-hook).Like for splitting birch very small,to use in a special holder as about the only light source,or for stove kindling.
(Russian stove,a very specialised masonry affair,also used very small stuff as fuel).
I'll try to find some photos,but meanwhile here's a link to the "Russian Axe" thread on a Russian forum(axes shown there represent oh,maybe 150+/- years back from today):
https://rusknife.com/topic/17997-русскiй-топоръ/
(Funny that being fluent in Russian i can't speak a word of Ukrainian,or Polish,or Serbian,or Any of the other Slavic language...(all of which can fairly easily understand one another).This right here tells a lot about how limited the Moscovy culture really was...
Yes sir,there Were other types of axes.Some were not massively different,but some were,indeed,fairly distinct.I'll try to find some good,representative photos.
As far as splitting goes,i believe that like in many other countries the use of saws by the poor peasants was not very common.Like that old English saying goes:"By hook or by crook",meaning that the landless peasantry were forbidden to cut any trees down,but were only allowed to gather the fallen branches,or the dead ones that they could pull down off the standing tree by a "crook".
So that they mostly burned small stuff.
Later,the last century or so,well into the Industrial age,there was a dedicated splitting-maul type axe(very crude and inconvenient to use to this day).
Wood was processed mostly by axe,and split by a warn out one,and then split further as necessary by a so-called "soven",a very thick/long knife-like object with a socket-like handle(like an unhandled British bill-hook).Like for splitting birch very small,to use in a special holder as about the only light source,or for stove kindling.
(Russian stove,a very specialised masonry affair,also used very small stuff as fuel).
I'll try to find some photos,but meanwhile here's a link to the "Russian Axe" thread on a Russian forum(axes shown there represent oh,maybe 150+/- years back from today):
https://rusknife.com/topic/17997-русскiй-топоръ/