Russian (Topor) pattern

[jake pogg]

He failed to share this knowledge widely once back home, on the throne, or so it seems.

That's a great observation,Ernest, very astute:The axe in that sculpture looks to be a decent German-pattern axe(i'd bet that the shipbuilding tools that Peter got to play with in Holland were pretty sexy).
And yes,Peter has succeeded only in a small part in dragging the rest of Russia to join the rest of Europe in...growing up,essentially,we may call it....
There's a bunch of superficial stuff that did rub off.The parts of the ship and the rigging vocabulary is in Dutch,many tools still bear German names(planes most notoriously),Square_peg's SKS is still called sometimes a "three-line rifle",as the English divided the Inch into tenths then,and three tenths of an inch is a 7.62 mm....The plumbing fixtures and pipe still comes in inches....Not much,eh?
Poor Peter,he did try so hard...Forcibly shaved the beards off of local dignitaries....Chopped off so many heads....And still failed to change much,even that lousy topor!

 

[Ernest DuBois]

The axe in that sculpture looks to be a decent German-pattern axe

And that's why I don't think it's giving us to much to take literally. The other axe, the more cartoonish, is consistent with the ship builder's axes from 16-1700s made by the Dutch smid.

 

[Square_peg]

A fairly low C number isn't it?

C70 is respectable. Gransfors Bruk has the world convinced that C55 is so good it has mystical properties. 1070 or equiv. will easily reach high 50s RC while retaining toughness. Even 1065 is perfectly adequate for an axe.

 

[jake pogg]

C70 is respectable.

Thank you,Square_peg,i agree,"70 points of carbon" ,another way to say 0.7%C,is rather sufficient.

As a matter of fact,right around here is the dividing point between the Hypoeutectoid and the HypeReuteuctoid steel....(it's about 0.76%C)
Speaking VERY primitively,what it means is at this point steel alloy reaches a saturation point for having any more Carbon mixed into it,very much like sugar being mixed into tea.Any more will only precipitate in some other form et c.
(less primitive view here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearlite).

The rest is also quite true.For us,woodworkers and woodchoppers,a steel alloy with Carbon down even in the 40-points range will suffice.
Things get a bit more interesting and require yet less C with the addition of other alloying elements(like AISI 4140(the last two digits in AISI designations stand for points of Carbon),but even with "plain carbon" alloys,40-ies and 50-ies is Plenty.

Of course,as always when talking about steel,we Mean,even when not outright say:"Sufficient Only after a proper HT, as Per given,expected Loading(certain X hardness,combined with Y toughness,combined with Z edge holding ability,et c.,et c.).

So,just because most axes produced in USSR were made out of some,essentially decent alloy,it doesn't mean that the Product is automatically great.
Quite often the HT on these was all kinds of wrong.Eye quenched and not tempered,poor temper drawn on the blade itself,excessive tempering(too soft an edge),and other unpredictable woes.
Each small party of axes was different.

 

[Agent_H]

Whether it's about Russian axes or not, Jake and Square_peg I find your layman's explanations of metallurgy, metal composition, and metal working helpful.

 

[Square_peg]

So,just because most axes produced in USSR were made out of some,essentially decent alloy,it doesn't mean that the Product is automatically great.
Quite often the HT on these was all kinds of wrong.Eye quenched and not tempered,poor temper drawn on the blade itself,excessive tempering(too soft an edge),and other unpredictable woes.
Each small party of axes was different.

Thanks for the heads up. I will file test in appropriate places.

 

[Tras Krom]

Actually it not that bad. Till now I've never heard that axes from 50's or 60's were bad, soft or significally differs from each other. In later years - anything can happens.

 

[Ernest DuBois]

I would say 0.7 - the high end of the parameter given, whatever that means - is potentially decent, well, let's go all-out and say even good and probably, taking the average smid, even sufficient. A carbonation of even 0.9 up through the low 1s in the hands of a really good smid is going to result in something special and when you get your hands on it and get that edge into condition you'll know it, whether it's the knife you use to cut your bacon thin or the axe to sever fibers clean, take a beating, and come back for more.

 

[jake pogg]

Actually it not that bad. Till now I've never heard that axes from 50's or 60's were bad, soft or significally differs from each other. In later years - anything can happens.

Right on,thank you.You definitely know your topor.

A carbonation of even 0.9 up through the low 1s in the hands of a really good smid is going to result in something special and when you get your hands on it and get that edge into condition you'll know it, whether it's the knife you use to cut your bacon thin or the axe to sever fibers clean, take a beating, and come back for more.

Yes,sir,'tis true.And thankfully the world about us is fairly full of good 1095 and W1 & 2 and such.
But practically all ranges of C in plain alloy steel is beautiful,or can be,for different things perhaps.

I hate to forever nag everyone with some obscure metallurgical data...but can't resist...just once more.Here a video that shows just what that C ratio does inside a grain of steel.

(That narration is annoying...).But one sees how the bigger patches of soft and malleable ferrite would act to absorb shock....Maybe that's why many manufacturers went with lower C alloy...I think that therein may be more shock-proof security for an all-weather/all terrain striking tool.*..
(semi-conjecture,and I may well be wrong).

*as opposed to a bench-kept, fine,hard,keen-edged tool,like those beauteous Dutch shipbuilding tools...And chisels and planes and such.

 

[Ernest DuBois]

Like a sponge out on the San Rafael Swell in August, I have plenty of room to soak in more understanding of carbon and iron and smithery so the notion of nagging we don't have to be bothered with. The instructional video, (which I liked so much and learned also much from), but it seems especially relevant to the one running a production enterprise and so also has its limitations. I understand that the context of the Russian Axe thread is the industrialized production of axes out of the Urals.

I wonder if this compression of the structure, condensing the carbon element that gets laid out in the video so well is not just what the skilled smid is either intuitively or explicitly getting at, the higher carbon rate just providing a possibility that that smid will be able to achieve a better edge depending on their skill and sensitivity, or whatever.

The labeling of this bit of steel or that bit of steel that get used here - 102-65, 10 4 88, or what was it 1095, etc... a kind of jargon, arbitrary and abstract, means absolutely nothing to me I must admit, never having had an interest in looking it up. My terms, much less detached, like what the Hitachi conglomerate called, white paper steel, the Uddeholm called, Arne or just the simple vernacular label tamahagane have at least some concrete connotations. Well, it's a personal matter I guess. My experience is only with the Arne, (coming in @0.95 C%), worked by a more than competent smid so this is a sort of tangible beginning point of my relative understanding.

 

[Agent_H]

I thought this video was interesting that Jake shared via Rusknife. Izhstal factory but I don’t understand Russian to feel what is going on. About min 3:00 to 5:00 min there seems to be some axe making talk.

Toporism by Agent Hierarchy, on Flickr


топорism by Agent Hierarchy, on Flickr

 

[jake pogg]

About min 3:00 to 5:00 min there seems to be some axe making talk.

They talk a bit of history of their axe manufacture...(since 1953 only,it seems),and brag up their axes as wonderful in every respect,and selling in many an exotic country,and how someone apparently even drug one up Everest!
They love to rattle off their statistics of the numbers manufactured,some millions of axes a year in the past,and a bit over a million a year nowadays.
Then of course they would brag up their UPS(УПС) topor.That's the one Agent_H was nice enough to post a large screen-shot of,the greenish-bluish one(iconic color).This model was forged out of an alloy called 8ХФ.It is a high-alloy (Cr-V predominantly) alloy,and is wonderful in every respect,other than as above,and steel is only as good as it's HT.But here's elemental the break-down for it:
C Si Mn Ni S P Cr V
0.7 - 0.8 0.1 - 0.4 0.15 - 0.45 до 0.4 до 0.03 до 0.03 0.4 - 0.7 0.15 - 0.3

And,according to this manufacturer(http://www.splav-kharkov.com/mat_start.php?name_id=507)it is billed as a tool-steel suitable for the manufacture of dies,shears and punches for cold-working,so something potentially tough and impact-resistant.

 

[Tras Krom]

Yes, and a nightmare to hone....

 

[jake pogg]

But the rest of the video is funky,about the labor struggle and in general about how these people are lost ever since the USSR went under...
It's a tragedy on a grand scale,starting back in the serfdom of 1700's and far from being over yet...

 

[rjdankert]

This is what I got done today with my NOS ZiK A2 from 1955








weight of head is 1,451kg (3 lb 3.2 oz).


Bob

Update:





Bob

 

[Tras Krom]

rjdankert Good job! Did you had a chance to use it? How was it?

 

[rjdankert]

rjdankert Good job! Did you had a chance to use it? How was it?

thanks, haven't used it. I moved the head (and of course kerf depth) down 3-4 mm and put the original wedge back in leaving it proud the way it came. I do not think that wedge will be adequate when driven flush. I think the method you posted here is the way to go:

This is NOS Zik 1952 with original birch handle.

As always, I used 5 wedges instead of one metal.

Great job


Bob

 

[Kentucky]

1060 will hit 62-63rc out of the quench with a real flat temper line out to 400°.. Not to sound like a broken record but its the heat treat more so than the steel..Most axes don't get a heat treat that lives up to the steel its made from.

 

[garry3]

Jauregi uses 0.45-0.50 carbon steel at 55HRC.
He talks a little about it about 22 minutes in.

 

[Ernest DuBois]

0.45 0.50 @63 or 55hrc is very fine and good but as I understand it the carbon content defines not only hardness but keenness of the edge. Chromium, molybdenum, vanadium and all the rest make for a coarser structure which limits the potential to get at a sharp edge. Bumping up the carbon content also makes a sharper and sharper edge possible. So the potential for a good edge is not strictly in the hands of smid alone but also rest with the sharpener all the while being fully dependent of the nature and composition of the steel.