Ryan Sword

[ichor]

Anyone know anything about this guy? Typical, "too good to be true" prices. A lot of time and money go into his auction descriptions, including quality pics and demonstration vids. Nearly 100 sales, with 100% positive feedback, and glowing comments. Cheap enough to try, if only for a wallhanger....just like to know if anyone knows any good or bad?
Ebay http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZryan_katana688
Website http://ryansword.com/

Should have included this auction, as not all show the bamboo cutting/paper slicing vid. The bamboo cutting appears to be a living plant. Not sure if this would be softer or harder than green bamboo mounted for cutting with a sword. Looks good but..............
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350009338614&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

Some of the more expensive (tho' still not expensive for "quality" swords" offer all kinds of exchanges for different parts of the sword:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350009340499&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

The even more expensive (still cheap, if quality) with more impressive vid demos, involving steel drums and flexibility tests. Looks good but, like Cold Steel video demos, makes one wonder how many knives/swords they went through until they got one that cut the mustard (if you'll excuse the expression) <g>:

He also offers extremely cheap, nonsharpened models, in which most of the expense is the shipping (from Shanghai)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350009338111&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

Seems like a pretty large, fairly professional operation (which could be good.......or bad). Would appreciate comments from those that may have purchased one of these swords and, especially, from the more experienced members of the forum. Thanks

 

[averageguy]

The prices are too good to be true and can't last forever - can they?

I've caught the sword fever and as long as I can buy forged high carbon swords for the price of a cheap knife I can't see myself buying any more knives.

We are at a confluence of price and quality out of China that can't last forever.
The rising price of commodities, specifically oil and steel in this case, and the desire of Chinese to have a middle class (or better) lifestyle likely means there wont be inexpensive swords forever.
See the SBG site and forum.

 

[ichor]

Thanks for the tip, Averageguy. Didn't know about that forum.

 

[Triton]

So I'm curious... This guy is selling stuff for less then 30 Aus dollars. Then you have people like the folks at Bugei selling Japanese style swords for hundreds or even thousands of dollars. So do you think that our cheap friend here is giving you an incredible deal out of the goodness of his heart or do you think that the folks at Bugei are ripping everyone off? Just curious.

 

[ichor]

So I'm curious... This guy is selling stuff for less then 30 Aus dollars. Then you have people like the folks at Bugei selling Japanese style swords for hundreds or even thousands of dollars. So do you think that our cheap friend here is giving you an incredible deal out of the goodness of his heart or do you think that the folks at Bugei are ripping everyone off? Just curious.

I know I looked at Bugei a few years ago. They were selling swords that "appeared" to be the same as ones sold for less by others. Came back to them a short time later and their prices had skyrocketed....because of their notoriety? Because their swords are now the best available.... I don't know. You've got 13,000 posts on this forum..... that's why I'm asking you. If you don't know anything about the swords I described...fine. Hypothetical questions about who's ripping people off, don't help me at all.

 

[averageguy]

I don't know if Bugei is ripping anybody off - their swords are out of my price range so I haven't spent much time researching these.
I will say this, that if the swords are made in China - they're turning a tidy profit.

Obviously the more work that goes into a piece the more expensive it will be - at under $300.00 I don't think anyone is suggesting these are high quality katana - just functional, and any number of them are attractive as well.

 

[senoBDEC]

No expert here, but what I see is:
A) cheap cotton ito and a less than adequate wrap (handle)
B) some of the auctions: machined "tempering line" - wallhanger? or through-hardened blade?
Stainless or carbon? Some other auctions show what looks like a forged blade, with what looks like a real "tempering line"
---- if you go to the website: http://www.ryansword.com/index.php?...id=199&zenid=0d1b366fc4393febd5a6f979a455f407
Can't tell, but the "folding pattern" (a.k.a. hada) looks very coarse, and could very well be etched only (think of how letters are etched into glasses or deskweights) - however, it may be folded and just inexpertly polished and etched.

Personally, I would avoid their products.
See: Oni Forge, Kris Cutlery, and Cheness, as well as Hanwei/Paul Chen (who make the Bugei line of swords, incidentally).

I don't know if Bugei is ripping anybody off - their swords are out of my price range so I haven't spent much time researching these.
I will say this, that if the swords are made in China - they're turning a tidy profit.

What? If you haven't spent any time researching them, I would recommend you not make any comments on them.
Trust me, they are well worth the price, though prices HAVE risen, due to factors mentioned already in Triton's post, among other things.

 

[Triton]

Okay, let me lay it out again. I've done it many times in the past which is why I asked this question this time instead of beating on the same old tired drum that I'm sure everyone around here is tired of hearing. I truly was curious as to what you were thinking by the way, it might be helpful to have some insight into why people think that they can get by on the cheap.

If one purchases a sword for 30 Aud (approximately 25 dollars U.S.) one is going to get a 25 dollar sword. senoBDec has already outlined some of the problems one is likely to encounter. In addition to the bad handle wraps, pot metal fittings, cheap tsuka cores, badly fitting saya, poor polishes and steels of indeterminate, grade, quality and origin as well as heat treatment are all the norm for swords of this quality.

Let me reiterate. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH! Yes, at the moment the Chinese make things more cheaply than we do in the states so there is some cost savings there no to the tune of 6000% which is what the savings would be comparing the 25 dollar sword against one of Bugei's 1500 dollar offerings (many of which are also made in China). Despite being able to turn things out at a lower price the Chinese are not stupid, they aren't going to give their wares away when can sell them for many times the money that they can ask. Therefore one has to believe that these swords are worth almost exactly what you are paying for them.

Would I trust a 25 dollar sword in cutting practice? No. Somewhere corners are being cut in construction.

I understand the desire to have a sword, and one wants one NOW. I've been there I've done that. My advice for whatever it is worth is to save your money and do some research. If one doesn't know the difference between Bugei's offerings and a 25 dollar sword more research is required.

This is probably coming off as a slap at you, but it is not intended as such, but rather as some advice to keep you from making the mistakes I have made.

Free lunch? It doesn't exist...

 

[ichor]

[QUOTE

I understand the desire to have a sword, and one wants one NOW. I've been there I've done that. My advice for whatever it is worth is to save your money and do some research. If one doesn't know the difference between Bugei's offerings and a 25 dollar sword more research is required.

This is probably coming off as a slap at you, but it is not intended as such, but rather as some advice to keep you from making the mistakes I have made.

Free lunch? It doesn't exist...[/QUOTE]

No, Triton, it doesn't come off as a slap...it comes off as a real answer. But, your first post didn't. Your first post appeared to be posted not because you were "just curious" ,but designed to make me out to be just another cheap, naive, dumbass, asking the same old, "tired drum" question. I'm none of those (well, maybe cheap). What I was looking for was someone with actual experience with this particular seller. One never knows when ya' might run into a real bargain, from a seller who hasn't quite gotten up to speed with his marketing expertise.

No Free Lunch? Heard that for 50 years and, clearly, it generally rings true. But not ALWAYS. In the early days of ebay, there were TONS of unbelievable buys. Too good to be true. Free lunch for the taking! That was before every 17 yr. old in the country knew about ebay. Now there are ten gadzillion potential buyers out there, and some of them aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer (no I don't put my kitchen knives in a drawer<g>) People paying more than they would spend if they bought the same item from any number of retailers, on the internet.....or at the brick and mortar store two blocks from their house!! If I had written every one of those bargains off, because I knew "there's no such thing as a free lunch"......I'd have missed out on a lot of bargains.

Having said that there are no ebay bargains anymore, in the last few months, I've benefited from numerous "too good to be true" items. There was a guy listing some Eriksson mora knives that commonly sell for $30-35. For 5-6 weeks, he consistently listed them with a very low "buy it now" price.... and, after several of them sold, (while I was asking myself, "what's wrong with this picture?"), I decided to take the plunge, figuring...what do I have to lose, at ten bucks? I bought 5 of them, one at a time, for less than 12 bucks, including shipping. I kept two and sold the others on the same ebay he was using, for $20-25 each. Why was he letting them go so cheap? Why wasn't someone else snapping them up? Surely no one is that stupid. I still have no idea what he was thinking. Maybe he was the twin brother of one of those guys who, regardless that a Hot Stuff, tactical, super steel nighthawk survival knife is selling every day for 35 bucks......he lists his for $79.95, right beside 10 identical ones, for less than half the price. <g> What.....he can't read the listings of his competition? He suffers from temporary insanity? Who knows what's in the minds of sellers.

Last month I bought a nice little used Olympus, point and shoot type camera, which retails on the net for around $75. The seller seemed straight forward, and had perfect positive feedback (tho', as it turned out, she was a lawyer which, in itself, gave me reason to hesitate). Again, I said....what the hell. The result was a like new, perfect little camera (with three new rolls of Kodak film)....for $10.25, including shipping. As an extra little suprise treat, she shipped the camera and posted my positive feedback the same day.

Just 5 days ago, I happened across two Cold steel "Spikes", which sell on ebay every day for $18-26, plus shipping. These two, brand new knives cost me $13.50 each, including shipping. (Please, no Lynn Thompson diatribes. <g>) Seller claims he was just "reducing his stock", but who knows? Maybe he's on mescaline. Regardless, I have them now, in 4 days, and I'm pleased as punch.

So, ya' see, Triton, I was doing my research...by asking the knowledgeable people here if they know anything about this guy's swords. Maybe, after all, I AM naive and a dumbass. But, who knows why he might be offering a pretty decent sword for a super bargain price? Maybe he's trying to make up for past transgressions. Maybe he feels guilty that so many of our jobs are now in China. Maybe he IS stupid!

Ya' never get anything if ya' don't ask. And, it was my impression that most forums welcome questions (even if they sometimes are of the "tired old drum" variety. And I, for one, welcome a tidbit on the forum that reveals a previously unknown bargain bin. Who knew about many of the reputable sellers until people started to discuss them on this forum, and others like it?

For the record, I own a Kris Cutlery katana, and a Hanwei Practical Plus, a Cheness Kaze, and a Showa period, handmade katana, that I paid 75 bucks for (as you know it's addictive). Not impressive to those with the bucks to afford the really good stuff, but the Showa period sword has been appraised, by a personal acquaintance (who is a genuine expert) at $2500-3000. I think that was a pretty decent bargain, tho' I had no clue, when I bought it. I'm just not one of those people who has to pay a lot for something, to feel good about it. Some people enjoy telling you how much they paid for something cool.....I enjoy telling how little I got it for. <g>

I have the bug, but I can't afford $1500, Bugei swords, on a retired, fixed income. I generally have to sell a toy, to buy another. That's why I'm always looking for that too good to be true deal. Incidently, for the record, I also have a Himalayan Imports BirGorkha Tarwar and a couple of kukuris. Guess what? I thought that these were "too good to be true" until I spent a couple months in the Cantina, and found out about our own Uncle Bill (may he rest in peace). I couldn't figure how the weekly (sometimes daily) "Pix and great buys", for admittedly, not quite perfect Himalayan Imports products, couldn't be a ripoff. Then I discovered the nature of Uncle Bill's effort, and his somewhat altruistic business practices (after many dumbass questions) and I bought one of the special deals. Uncle Bill didn't know me from a bale of hay, but he mailed out my first kukuri the day I ordered it.....a week before he received my check. I thought that pretty unusual, if not a free lunch.

So, sorry for the long winded rant but, hopefully, you now have some idea of what was going through my feeble mind, when I asked my question. And thanks, senoBDEC, for the useful post.

 

[Triton]

[QUOTE
So, ya' see, Triton, I was doing my research...by asking the knowledgeable people here if they know anything about this guy's swords. Maybe, after all, I AM naive and a dumbass. But, who knows why he might be offering a pretty decent sword for a super bargain price? Maybe he's trying to make up for past transgressions. Maybe he feels guilty that so many of our jobs are now in China. Maybe he IS stupid!

What do you think is the most likely answer?

Ya' never get anything if ya' don't ask. And, it was my impression that most forums welcome questions (even if they sometimes are of the "tired old drum" variety. And I, for one, welcome a tidbit on the forum that reveals a previously unknown bargain bin. Who knew about many of the reputable sellers until people started to discuss them on this forum, and others like it?

That's actually a good point. Sorry about that, I've just heard that question so many times (always in reference to the latest and greatest chitana for ONLY 19.95) that I get a little jaded.

For the record, I own a Kris Cutlery katana, and a Hanwei Practical Plus, a Cheness Kaze, and a Showa period, handmade katana, that I paid 75 bucks for (as you know it's addictive).

Then I suspect you already own superior swords to the ones you referenced. I could be wrong of course, but I think it likely.

Something to consider... at 25 bucks you aren't really losing much, perhaps you could buy one and then review it for us here....

 

[ichor]

What do you think is the most likely answer?

I think the most LIKELY answer is that it's too good to be true. <g>
T
hat's actually a good point. Sorry about that, I've just heard that question so many times (always in reference to the latest and greatest chitana for ONLY 19.95) that I get a little jaded.

I'm pretty sure I knew that. We all get a little jaded at times (speaking from experience). Sorry if I came on too harshly or abrasive



Then I suspect you already own superior swords to the ones you referenced. I could be wrong of course, but I think it likely.

I'm sure you're right. Just looking for something new


Something to consider... at 25 bucks you aren't really losing much, perhaps you could buy one and then review it for us here....

Good idea. I just may do that.

 

[averageguy]

"If you haven't spent any time researching them, I would recommend you not make any comments on them."


$1500.00 and made in China - yes, they are turning a tidy profit on each and every sword they sell - assuming they are as efficient running the business as they are marketing their products.

 

[averageguy]

This gentleman offers very close to the lowest price high carbon japanese style swords on ebay - this is what $50.00 delivered can get you on a good day.

http://sbgswordforum.proboards70.com/index.cgi?board=swordreviews&action=display&thread=1191534536

If a Bugei was 10 times better it would be worth $250.00, if it was 20 times better (WOW) that would make it a $500.00 sword. But in reality Bugei are 30 times better swords making them worth $750.00 - add a reasonable profit of 100% and, bam, you've got a $1500.00 Bugei and worth every penny. Still not a real Japanese sword but hey - it's a Bugei.

Again, I have done little research, but I suspect the biggest difference between a $25.00 Ronin and a true japanese sword is the skill of the person wielding the sword. That is, a $25.00 katana in the hands of a master swordsman will significantly outperform a true japanese sword in my hand.

 

[Triton]

Again, I have done little research, but I suspect the biggest difference between a $25.00 Ronin and a true japanese sword is the skill of the person wielding the sword. That is, a $25.00 katana in the hands of a master swordsman will significantly outperform a true japanese sword in my hand.

Maybe. Undoubtedly a sword in the hand of a skilled swordsman will outperform the same sword in the hand of a rank novice. There is going to be a distinct qualitative difference between two swords at those price points however, unless the company selling the higher priced item are simply rip off artists. People who know far more about Japanese swords then I do not believe Bugei are mere rip off artists. I respect their opinion.

The best swordsman in the world can't perform if his 25 dollar sword just came apart.

Again I have to ask the question, what sort of corners do you think were cut in turning out that 25 dollar wonder? Are you willing to risk your safety or someone else's on them?

 

[averageguy]

Did you look at the review? It's not going to break - it's not the "shop at home / QVC" sword. This test of a Cheness shows how capable cheap swords are if you get a good one. http://www.rsknives.co.uk/review.html

Any corner that can be cut is cut. If someone wants and can afford a sword that doesn't cut corners - that's great.

The main thing that's being cut by swords made in China are labor costs. Far and away the most expensive single element in the manufacture of a sword. And that is why Bugei turns a tidy profit on every piece they sell.

A good machete runs $15.00 - every possible expense is spared in the production of these simple tools. Generally they cut and don't break and as evidenced in the mid 90's - they are brutally effective against human targets. In fact - I'm sure a machete in the hands of a master swordsman will outperform a true japanese sword in my hand.
As you are aware japanese swords aren't made to perform chopping wood or prying open doors but rather to slash and thrust. I am supremely confident that my sub $300.00 swords will meet that performance criteria.

 

[Sam Salvati]

Those are CRAP. Wire brushed on hamons and they are BUTT UGLY.

 

[senoBDEC]

The main thing that's being cut by swords made in China are labor costs. Far and away the most expensive single element in the manufacture of a sword. And that is why Bugei turns a tidy profit on every piece they sell.

Generalization - with no solid facts. Doesn't prove anything either way.
As Triton as mentioned, many people who are highly knowledgeable in the practice of the various Japanese Sword Arts, and/or Japanese-style bladesmithing and sword construction, have found Bugei to offer a stellar product at a very reasonable price.
I would be inclined to trust their opinion much greater than someone who has never handled, nor really researched, Bugei's products.

No doubt the original (and current) intent was to reduce costs, and China happened to have relatively well established production sword-making organizations/factories/etc - something you won't see on such a scale or quality pretty much anywhere else. Noone's disputing the fact that Bugei HAS to maintain a profit margin on their swords, but it certainly seems that you're implying that they are overpricing their swords.

A good machete runs $15.00 - every possible expense is spared in the production of these simple tools. Generally they cut and don't break and as evidenced in the mid 90's - they are brutally effective against human targets. In fact - I'm sure a machete in the hands of a master swordsman will outperform a true japanese sword in my hand.
As you are aware japanese swords aren't made to perform chopping wood or prying open doors but rather to slash and thrust. I am supremely confident that my sub $300.00 swords will meet that performance criteria.

I'm glad you're confident in the materials and worksmanship of the swords you have chosen - that really doesn't seem to bear to the topic on hand - the "maker" Ryansword - who is probably an importer of cheaply-made replicas, probably mostly intended for the SLIGHTLY more discerning tourist rather than a user (though no doubt they could be used... for a little while... before they fail) - and the quality of his wares.

The comparison to machetes is flawed due to the greater complexity of the design for the Japanese-styled sword versus the pinned "kitchen-knife" slabs or epoxied hidden tang construction of most bargain machetes.

 

[averageguy]

Yes, I am implying they are overpriced.

Even if you have no business accumen the fact that most everybody who offers Japanese style swords made in China can do it for considerably less money should suggest to you that these may be priced too high.
However, you may be the sort who doesn't feel good about his purchase unless he has spent a lot of money. You are a Bugei customer.

You seem to be expressing some doubts about the capability of less expensive swords, I suggest you visit the forums at Sword Buyers Guide for some examples of how well inexpensive swords can perform.
Make sure you visit the review of the Cheness I linked to above.

I'm sure the katana that Bugei offers are nice swords I never indicated otherwise. But as I attempted to illustrate above, even if they paid 10 times as much for the steel and ten times more to forge and polish it - it would still be overpriced - and it would still never be a true Japanese sword.

 

[Triton]

Yes, I am implying they are overpriced.

Even if you have no business accumen the fact that most everybody who offers Japanese style swords made in China can do it for considerably less money should suggest to you that these may be priced too high.

Or... perhaps Bugei is doing something that the retailers of the other Chitanas is not?

You seem to be expressing some doubts about the capability of less expensive swords, I suggest you visit the forums at Sword Buyers Guide for some examples of how well inexpensive swords can perform.
Make sure you visit the review of the Cheness I linked to above.

The problem with a venue like that is that the reviews are only as good as the knowledge base of those doing the reviews.

Here we see a 5/5 (BUY IT NOW!) rating for a Cheness sword.

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/kaze-ko.html

Wow! They must be really good... or are they. Just what sort of training and martial arts experience does the reviewer have? Well here's a quote:

The Cheness Kaze Ko-Katana feels very solid in my untrained hands.

Hmm so no formal training. I guess. How many good sword has he handled. How many bad? Does he know enough to know the difference? What makes a "good" sword to him?

Now consider, in the Viking and Medieval swords sections I see stuff from Generation 2 given 5/5 reviews and a piece from Darksword Armory of all places given a 4/5 positive review. I'm afraid that does not instill a lot of confidence in the reviews.

But what about the videos? I mean that one showed a sword being used to hack through a telephone pole! Of course I've got a 25 dollar axe from Lowes that can also hack through telephone poles. Does that make my axe a good sword? Why not? What does make a good sword?

To be fair I believe I've seen the owner of that site on several boards in the past indicate that the criteria are fairly subjective and they are meant to apply to swords at the very low price points that they are dealing with. I believe the owner himself would not attempt to compare the cheapies on that site with higher end pieces. In fact he's said as much. Rather he is trying to steer people away from cheap and dangerous sword like objects for which I salute him.

I'm sure the katana that Bugei offers are nice swords I never indicated otherwise. But as I attempted to illustrate above, even if they paid 10 times as much for the steel and ten times more to forge and polish it - it would still be overpriced - and it would still never be a true Japanese sword.

Consider, if one were to purchase a blade from Howard Clark, have it polished and mounted and sayad by Keith Larman one would be out what 6000+ dollars or so? (heck that number might be low). Yet few would consider them overpriced. Yet they are just shaping and polishing steel like the forges in China. What makes them worth more? Now what would make one of Bugei's offerings worth more?

I'm not here to defend Bugei they get along quite nicely without my help and their client base is decidedly different then those buying the latest and greatest super cheap sword from whichever forge of the day in China. Why do people that actually are experienced martial artists prefer to purchase from Bugei? Is it just because they are sword snobs that prefer spending extra money?

 

[averageguy]

All I've said in my posts are that one, you can purchase an inexpensive and functional Japanese style sword and two, that Bugei turns a tidy profit on each sword they sell.

Those are two facts. Yet for some reason a couple of you feel the need to dispute this whether this is out of some form of elitism, denseness or the desire to be argumentative - I don't know.

When you mention Clark you make a couple of my points. Most of the cost is in the labor and that inexpensive (versus a true japanese sword) swords can perform on par or, in the case of a Clark, better than most swords.