Ryan Sword

A $30 sword with $60 postage. They are cheap garbage. The stuff Bugei sell, a lot of it may be made by Hanwei, but they are very different than the old standard line particularly in the area of quality control. Hanwei was always the mass produced handmade stuff with extreme variances in quality control. Bugei gets the special stuff that Paul Chen makes. Hanwei has changed a bit since though by offering far higher end (and higher priced) swords out of L6 and Tamagane. Anyone who wants a $30 sword with a $60 postal charge you should go and get it, but prepared to pick shards of garbage steel out of your body for the next 6 months if you ever whack anything with it, you may as well hit your targets with a fluorescent tube cause it will perform about the same.
 
"Anyone who wants a $30 sword with a $60 postal charge you should go and get it, but prepared to pick shards of garbage steel out of your body for the next 6 months if you ever whack anything with it, you may as well hit your targets with a fluorescent tube cause it will perform about the same."

That's a load of crap. Why don't you educate yourself a little bit or at least read through the thread before you make such an assinine statement.

(( Unnecessarily antagonistic language. ))
 
Go and buy your $30 sword. You are the one who states they no longer need to buy knives cause you can buy a sword for $30. Why are you here telling us about it. Just go and do it and hit those targets tough guy.

Oh and I dare you to go on the Bugei forums and mouth off about them there (( :jerkit::jerkit::yawn: Does not advance thoughtful discussion. ))
 
I'm not a tough guy but I don't step into a thread and make a retarded statement like you did above. As before, if you had read through the thread you would see the only mouthing off I've done is to point out that Bugei must turn a good profit.

You're the one who stepped up to mouth off - not only did you not read through the thread as evidenced in your first post, I doubt you even bothered to look at the swords Ryan is offering because you are so full of yourself. You just took it upon yourself to slam his product with absolutely nothing to back it up - whereas he has 106 different happy buyers. But neither his swords or his feedback is worth considering because you're a very special type.
Why don't you go and bend over for your fellow forumites at Bugei.

(( Unnecessarily antagonistic language. ))
 
Gentlemen, I wouldn't have intervened but I noticed there is no currently active moderator here, and the discussion could be valuable, even with a large measure of disagreement. Please try to keep the personal remarks out of it and focus on the swords, not on each other.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Gentlemen, I wouldn't have intervened but I noticed there is no currently active moderator here, and the discussion could be valuable, even with a large measure of disagreement. Please try to keep the personal remarks out of it and focus on the swords, not on each other.
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Thanks Esav. :p
 
Hi, good to see you. I don't think this is the usual for the forum. I got that report to check it out. Just as soon keep it low-key, without infractions if we can. :)
 
The folk selling the cheap Chinese swords are making a tidy profit as well. if the producers put the time, labor and materials into the swords that Hanwei does, the retail cost wouldn't be much different than comparable Hanwei swords. Frankly, even the cost of the faux silk lined boxes could be better applied to the quality of the swords.

Sword Buyers Guide is a forum on training wheels. While there is occasional thoughful and insightful information, it is geared towards the sword market below $300. Is it any suprise then that swords costing less than $300 are being lauded? That the man behind the operation looks to selling swords and promoting the cheaper swords a full time job? What many most likely appreciate there is that the concept of having fun is more important than being correct. Word of mouth has made it mostly a haven for absolute begginers that would rather have fun than be correct. it is another site that is growing and becoming meaningful to some. Kept in proper context, all the many varied discussion boards fill a need.

When "Paul Chen" of Cheness made his appearance, he made a big deal about the fact he was "discounting" the swords and trying to put great product in the hands of all. There may be some merit beyond the hype but it is outweighed by profit margin as well.

What any of this has to do with a sub $100 sword that likely cost less than $10 US to produce is beyond me. if someone has the expendable cash and wants to buy and report back. Well, wowee, you too can be a headliner and hero for a day.

Why bother trying to elucidate anyone? Why naysay a potential bargain for some? Chuckle and skip the thread. I know I should have.

Cheers

Hotspur; don't forget, having fun is more important than being right
 
"The folk selling the cheap Chinese swords are making a tidy profit as well. if the producers put the time, labor and materials into the swords that Hanwei does, the retail cost wouldn't be much different than comparable Hanwei swords."

Or Bugei - I would presume you to mean. For the folks offering $30.00 swords that tidy profit after acquiring, shipping, warehousing, ebaying - might be $5.00. Doesn't seem very sizeable. Operations like Kris or Cheness likely do make a reasonable profit. But Hanwei, and Bugei especially - while undoubtedly offering a fine product are trading on the name much like a Strider or Busse product.

Operations like Kris and Cheness make a point of keeping things simple and offering a fine balance of price and performance. For me and many others it is difficult to make out the value of a $1500.00 sword made in China. Much like it's difficult for me to make out the value in a Strider made with CAM and I've been collecting knives for 12 years now.

As for SBG, it's fun to not feel the need to spend a lot of money - to be free from the elitism that can be so prevalent on other websites including this one.

This should be obvious but sometimes it isn't because of our obsession with things edged - cutlery isn't rocket science and doesn't require abstract thought.

Another thing we tend to forget as we become obsessed is that the absense of a high level of craftsmanship does not preclude function.
 
averageguy said:
All I've said in my posts are that one, you can purchase an inexpensive and functional Japanese style sword and two, that Bugei turns a tidy profit on each sword they sell.
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Very well, I agree that one can purchase an inexpensive Japanese style sword, as to functional, I suppose that depends on the function one wants. I am certain that Bugei does earn a tidy profit, after all few are in business for truly altruistic reasons. As has been pointed out one suspects that all vendors are turning a tidy profit.

averageguy said:
When you mention Clark you make a couple of my points. Most of the cost is in the labor and that inexpensive (versus a true japanese sword) swords can perform on par or, in the case of a Clark, better than most swords.
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Again one is getting what one wants. Mr. Clark's swords are cheaper than the equivalent Japanese swords because they are not forged using traditional methods, nor are they forged in Japan two things that many Shinkenophiles (I think I just made that term up) are willing to pay a premium for. The difference is fairly readily quantified.

So... what is the quantifiable difference between one sword made in China (the cheap sword of the day) and the swords handled by Bugei, also made in China? Is there truly no difference?
 
There's all kinds of difference - it's obvious that every corner is cut - I said so previously. I'm prepared to offer that Bugei represents the highest quality made in China.
 
averageguy said:
There's all kinds of difference - it's obvious that every corner is cut - I said so previously. I'm prepared to offer that Bugei represents the highest quality made in China.
Click to expand...

LOL. Daggnabbit what are we arguing about again? :D

Now if there was this knight and he were to fight this samurai...
 
Triton said:
Now if there was this knight and he were to fight this samurai...
Click to expand...

The producers, exporters/importers and retailers of inexpensive Chinese swords will probably turn a profit.

Where the sucessful low end retailers are making up for less profit per piece is drop shipping and volume. Those that might have actually signed for a pallet (or several) of Masahiro or Musashi are making even more on the margin.

The difference between the cost of the high end Hanwei and Bugei swords is the extra handling and production that go into them. Not to mention each sword being inspected, adjusted, accepted or rejected once it is in country (no one is doing that for free). Even the practical series shows more refinement and production QC than Cheness and at not much more or close to the same price.

Sure, cutlery is not rocket science but if it were truly only common sense then there wouldn't be such a wide disparity in quality. That's true of a lot more than just Chinese produced Japanese style swords.

I see the elitism card played again as well and will only say that ignorance seems to breed that feeling. Great threads in the modern production katana room of SFI right now about habaki and tsuka. I find the ones crying about elitism the most likely not to have read such. After quite a long break from trying to explain some basics to the unknowledgable, Keith Larman is taking some time to (once again) point out some of the shortcomings of katanaesque swords.

Cheers

Hotspur; it is a bit scary to think I have read more information about the production katana market than many that embrace it
 
Are you suggesting that an outfit like Ryan is profiting anywhere near what Bugei profits.

It's not common sense - it's readily available knowledge that is readily understood.

It's not ignorance. It's your turning it into a bigger deal than it really is.

You and your fellow forumites at SFI must believe it's magic. It's a couple pieces of wood attached by a couple of pins to a piece of high carbon.
I'm confident you can turn it into something much more complex to justify your elitism, but again - the lack of a high level of craftsmanship does not preclude function.
 
averageguy said:
Are you suggesting that an outfit like Ryan is profiting anywhere near what Bugei profits.
Click to expand...
Where the sucessful low end retailers are making up for less profit per piece is drop shipping and volume. Those that might have actually signed for a pallet (or several) of Masahiro or Musashi are making even more on the margin.

It's not common sense - it's readily available knowledge that is readily understood.
Click to expand...

The difference between the cost of the high end Hanwei and Bugei swords is the extra handling and production that go into them. Not to mention each sword being inspected, adjusted, accepted or rejected once it is in country (no one is doing that for free). Even the practical series shows more refinement and production QC than Cheness and at not much more or close to the same price.

It's not ignorance. It's your turning it into a bigger deal than it really is.
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Great threads in the modern production katana room of SFI right now about habaki and tsuka. "it's readily available knowledge that is readily understood."

You and your fellow forumites at SFI must believe it's magic. It's a couple pieces of wood attached by a couple of pins to a piece of high carbon.
I'm confident you can turn it into something much more complex to justify your elitism, but again - the lack of a high level of craftsmanship does not preclude function.
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I guess that means you won't read the threads and will be happy with your misconceptions. Not just about the way those parts interact but how many interforumites communicate on a much more civil plane. If understanding why some swords cost more than others makes me elite, I'm happy to be judged so. I've also never begrudged someone buying a $39 build your own katana kit. It is a matter of perspective. If being able to point out the differences between a $50 sword and a $250, then a $500 and a $2,000 sword is helpful to any that might wonder; I'm glad to help. Be it here, at SBG, SFI, Netsword, myArmoury, Viking Sword and others.

Cheers

Hotspur; it is a bit scary to think I have read more information about the production katana market than many that embrace it
 
You've expended some effort rewriting your previous post but repeating verbatim what you said above doesn't make it any more correct.

"If understanding why some swords cost more than others makes me elite, I'm happy to be judged so. I've also never begrudged someone buying a $39 build your own katana kit. It is a matter of perspective. If being able to point out the differences between a $50 sword and a $250, then a $500 and a $2,000 sword is helpful to any that might wonder; I'm glad to help. Be it here, at SBG, SFI, Netsword, myArmoury, Viking Sword and others."

Well, you are very magnanimus in your elitism. It is exceedingly clear to me and everyone else what differentiates a fifty dollar sword from a two thousand dollar sword - primarily. the amount of labor involved - in this case Chinese labor which is very inexpensive and as I have pointed out before in this thread - given the prices Bugei is charging - obviously very profitable to Williams.

The only thing you've brought to this thread is the suggestion that someone selling cheapies on ebay is profitting like Bugei. Wrong.

Then you suggest that an inexpensive sword has some inherent flaw that makes them unserviceable ("fun but not correct" is how you put this) but you don't bring any examples.

SBG brings plenty of examples of functional low end swords but since this dosen't fit into your view of what an inexpensive sword is - it's a forum on training wheels.

Do you seriosly not regard yourself as elitest? Do you not have enough depth of perception to see this.
Don't get me wrong - I too am elitest up to the level my income permits.
It's happened to anybody who has been into this stuff for any length of time.
With education comes a deserved level of elitism.

The problem comes when someone fails to perceive the obvious as a result of this elitism.

I made two points. The first that Bugei makes a tidy profit. The second, that inexpensive swords can be functional.

These things are pretty obvious. Nothing you have written makes this any less true.

Well, that's not quite right because it is possible that Bugei only sells a couple of swords each month - that people talk the talk but don't actually buy anything.
So to end this part of the discussion permit me to conceede that it's possible Bugei operates at a loss.

Inexpensive swords can be functional - that's indisputable.

But to end this second part of the discussion I will conceede that this functionality, while seemingly adequate to me and any number of other people, doesn't meet your particular concept of function.
 
Ninety-nine cent Swiss Army type knives are functional too.

If group A sells one sword and makes $100 profit and group B sells ten swords with a profit of ten dollars per; Who made more profit?

I did point to information about what makes some of the cheaper swords less functional. The habaki and tsuka are only part of the problems. You choose to ignore that. I did mention that SBG (and indeed all forums) had some worth. If you want me to go find a post from Paul Southren mentioning the "geared to absolute beginners" atmosphere there, I could.

What you seem to be missing is that I'm not denying cheap swords might suit some. Go right back to my first post in this thread and read more than what triggered some sort of misfounded ire.

With that, I'll chuckle and move on.

Cheers

Hotspur; it is a bit scary to think I have read more information about the production katana market than many that embrace it
Glen: I know it doesn't mean much to you, but plus 1 karma for adding your $0.02 on Stainless... (and the monkey peanuts reference)

Personally, I tend to approach the topic in an overly simplistic way on SBG - i.e. the advice is 'avoid stainless steel swords' because I am trying to give beginners a solid foundation. Too much information and qualifiers (after all, there are few absolutes in life, other than death and taxes) does, in my opinion at least, only causes confusion at the early stages of learning about steel and swords.

Hopefully, as the beginner starts to learn more from varied sources - they start to add more pieces to the puzzle...

Saying stainless is crap is true enough for the vast majority of the $20 wall hangers (where if the steel actually is quite durable tends to be so not by design but by chance...). But as threads like this can attest to, it isn't the whole story.

Cheers,

- Paul
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There you go again - you presume to teach me some basic business / math. Wrong.

Then, once again, you suggest there is some magic in the construction of a katana by mentioning a couple parts. It would have been more effective had you written T-S-U-K-A and H-A-B-A-K-I. Within a couple hours of research we are familiar with these terms and how "complex" a katana is.

Yes it's nice that you can buy a correct and nicely made sword from Bugei with exacting attention to detail.

It's still a Chitana.
That means some of the lowest labor costs on the planet.
I and the many non-Bugei buyers, and that means most of us, are not comfortable paying that much for a fantasy made in China.
No, my elitest freind we are not idiots. Rather we understand we are making a compromise when we purchase anything less than a true Japaneese sword from a master swordmaker in Japan. We understand or at least presume we are not getting even a Bugei quality product.

There is no true function for a Japaneese sword in our modern world. But clearly even the lowest cost Chitana could function to maim or kill a human with little trouble. See the attack on the wooden table top I pointed out in my link to a Ronin sword review. If function equates to damage against human targets - the intended function of a Samurai sword - then these lower end swords can indeed be plenty functional. A $5.00 machete posesses a healthy dose of the function of a katana in that sense.

For a very few, function will equate to consistent cutting of mats in a dojo.
That seems like great fun but I suspect not a lot of expensive Japaneese swords see this kind of action.
I would venture to say as well, that a Cheness SGC or Hanwei Practical Plus will perform this type of duty for somewhat less than a Bugei.

I and many others are comfortable with the compromises we make. We don't need someone to tell us we're ignorant or suggest there is some type of magic in the construction of a katana. We understand just fine why a piece costs more. But in the case of Bugei, as fine as they are and given that a 100% profit is reasonable, I have a hard time seeing the value given the realities mentioned above.
I do have a very easy time seeing the value of the forged, high carbon swords that Ryan is offering.






I'm just repeating myself as well - this is so over I don't know why I can't keep my hands off the keyboard.
 
My only katanaesque sword is a Hanwei 4th generation Practical Katana, purchased spring of 2003. $139 delivered. Pushed harder than any will generally push their swords, although most of the year is spent in its bag.

The question is not will a cheap sword function but how long it will successfully do so in the manner it was produced. A lot is forgivable or overllooked but safety really shouldn't be.

What I have seen of the low end katana market over the past few years is that those hanging onto the swords long enough tend to come to the conclusion that the blade alone was worth the money. This seems more true of Cheness but groups do buy lot sales of Cheness as dojo level swords. Again, I'm not saying inexpensive swords can't perform on some level. Also that my bottom line in posting to this thread was Why deny what some might see as a bargain?

None of the dozen plus production swords I own cost as much as some knives
I have bought. Some of the least expensive have been just as useful/enjoyable as the more expensive ones but I would rather (in hindsight) have raised my standards a bit in the beginning. Most of those will never appreciate or even have street value half of what retail was. The more expensive stuff does hold value better.

I still advise beginners to buy the best quality sword they can afford. Some would rather test the waters with swords such as initiated this thread. That's fine. What does seem denial (to me) is that many start buying a cheap sword a week/month, when waiting and saving a bit would provide them a better quality product.

What ever

Hotspur; yes, runaway keyboards can be an addiction in of themselves
 
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